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4 Jan 2004, 03:52 (Ref:827089) | #1 | |
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10 Best Tourer Drivers - some logic
Here's another good argument starter. F1 magazine did a Top 10 All round GP drivers based on certain criteria...thought it would be a good idea to do one for Aussie Tourer racers. I listed 13 most appropriate (you can probably argue but you'd need a good case) with the only proviso being that they had to have won a title, so sorry Murphy, Perkins and Ingall fans. I've rated them (out of 10)for A)results/consistency, B)race craft (passing etc), C)technical (feedback and car setup), D)qualifying and E)sportsmanship (this is just as important as anything else in my opinion).
I just did these with no bias, so you can argue all you like...here are the results: A B C D E 1 Dick Johnson 9 8.5 9.5 8.5 10 45.5 2 Mark Skaife 9 8.5 9 9 9 44.5 3 Ian Geoghegan 9 8.5 9 9 9 44.5 4 Jim Richards 9 9 8.5 8 9.5 44 5 Peter Brock 9 9.5 7 8.5 10 44 6 Craig Lowndes 8.5 9.5 6.5 9.5 9.5 43.5 7 Marcos Ambrose 8 8 8.5 9.5 9 43 8 Alan Moffat 8.5 8.5 9 9 7 42 9 Norm Beechey 7 8.5 8 8 9 40.5 10 Bob Jane 8 9 8 8.5 7 40.5 11 Glenn Seton 7 7.5 8 7 9 38.5 12 John Bowe 6.5 8 8.5 7.5 8 38.5 13 Colin Bond 6 7.5 8.5 6.5 9 37.5 Comments anyone? Wild disagreements? |
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"You can get lucky and win one championship but not two ..." Jamie Whincup. I wonder which person with the initials RK he was referring to. |
4 Jan 2004, 04:30 (Ref:827106) | #2 | ||
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Maybe its a typo, but you have given Dick a 10 for sportsmanship whilst Lowndes only gets a 9.5 and Marcus only a 9? WHAT THE?
It could also be argued that half of your roll of honour didnt quite have the same competition as the more recent championship winners:confused: |
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4 Jan 2004, 05:01 (Ref:827121) | #3 | ||
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i sure as hell hope you dont include sporttsmanship to include the way the driver treats the fans, if so, skaife drops to a 2, lowndes seton and ambrose all upgraded to 10.
cheers |
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Matt H |
4 Jan 2004, 06:05 (Ref:827149) | #4 | ||
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Anyone who ever witnessed early touring car racing with Pete G, Beechey, Jane, Brian Thomson, Jim Richards, John McCormack, Moffat, Harvey, Brock, Bond, Morris, McKeown, Foley, Muir, Gibson etc. etc. and says the competition wasnt up to scratch simply was not there. Most of todays drivers would be too scared to drive the cars they drove then (big HP, no downforce, questionable brakes, **** tyres etc). And I'm not knocking todays drivers... Last edited by deeks6; 4 Jan 2004 at 06:06. |
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"You can get lucky and win one championship but not two ..." Jamie Whincup. I wonder which person with the initials RK he was referring to. |
4 Jan 2004, 07:11 (Ref:827163) | #5 | |
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Interesting comparison deeks6. I always thought that DJ deserved more credit than he ever got.
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4 Jan 2004, 07:47 (Ref:827175) | #6 | |
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I think you've rated Dick to highly on technical feedback and sportsmanship. Dick was generally clean but did involve himself in a few incidents over the years.
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"It was dry for the second go-around. Grice, nervous, worrying about his Bathurst jinx, ran 2:25.9. The amazing Brock, using every last centimetre of bitumen, yet keeping the car straight and balanced and at full noise, came back with a staggering 2:20.0 as if to say: "Match that". And people just shook their heads, bit their lips and wondered who would be second". RIP Peter Brock. 1945-2006 |
4 Jan 2004, 07:56 (Ref:827182) | #7 | ||
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Having BOB JANE in the top ten is laugh-able... Specially considering Seto, Bowe & Bond are out of the top ten!!!!
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4 Jan 2004, 10:36 (Ref:827232) | #8 | |
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I reckon Brockie needs to be higher then that, johnson needs to slip down a few places, looks like you have only ranked ambrose on recent form. Maybe canedates should have a certain amount of time to be in touring cars before they qualify. And as big as a brockie fan i am didnt a red monaro punt a bmw off this year at bathurst?
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4 Jan 2004, 10:42 (Ref:827237) | #9 | ||
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Quote:
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Holden- How One Legendary Driver Earned Nine Permanent circuits- the life blood of motorsport |
4 Jan 2004, 10:43 (Ref:827238) | #10 | ||
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Holden- How One Legendary Driver Earned Nine Permanent circuits- the life blood of motorsport |
4 Jan 2004, 10:48 (Ref:827241) | #11 | |
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deeks6,
Why'd you leave out drivers without a title? Some of the best and most consistent front runners are yet to take the Championship and would likely outscore some of the drivers you mention. Last edited by Mattracer; 4 Jan 2004 at 10:49. |
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Holden- How One Legendary Driver Earned Nine Permanent circuits- the life blood of motorsport |
4 Jan 2004, 11:01 (Ref:827248) | #12 | ||
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Why do we bother with these magazine style top 10/top 100 polls? What do they prove?
All they do is cause fights and fill the forum with the same rubbish over and over. |
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4 Jan 2004, 11:06 (Ref:827252) | #13 | ||
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Seriously, please do some research before making such a comment on a true Aussie legend. Also, you appear to have missed the point of the exercise (all-round). Personally, I think Brock and Lowndes are the most talented (Aussie tourer) drivers I've ever seen...they can make slow cars look fast, but they are technically deficient compared to the others. |
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"You can get lucky and win one championship but not two ..." Jamie Whincup. I wonder which person with the initials RK he was referring to. |
4 Jan 2004, 11:18 (Ref:827263) | #14 | ||
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Holden- How One Legendary Driver Earned Nine Permanent circuits- the life blood of motorsport |
4 Jan 2004, 11:21 (Ref:827269) | #15 | ||
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"Looks" can be deceiving. They do ooze ability though. |
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Holden- How One Legendary Driver Earned Nine Permanent circuits- the life blood of motorsport |
4 Jan 2004, 11:36 (Ref:827283) | #16 | ||
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I think the area of technical (feedback and car setup) is one that needs work. You can't have Dick higher than Moffat, Brock, Skaife or Richards for that. Dick also struggled to race as competitively in differing conditions ie. bad weather. However this isn't a catergory. |
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"It was dry for the second go-around. Grice, nervous, worrying about his Bathurst jinx, ran 2:25.9. The amazing Brock, using every last centimetre of bitumen, yet keeping the car straight and balanced and at full noise, came back with a staggering 2:20.0 as if to say: "Match that". And people just shook their heads, bit their lips and wondered who would be second". RIP Peter Brock. 1945-2006 |
4 Jan 2004, 11:50 (Ref:827294) | #17 | ||
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How did Johnson get a 9 for consistency?
He contested the ATCC full-time from 1981-1999. In 19 years, he won 5 titles, but out of the other 14 years, was only in the hunt for the championship once (1990). He wasn't in the hunt in any of the other years, and after the third race of 1990, didn't win a round again. |
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"The Great Race" 22 November 1960 - 21 July 1999 |
4 Jan 2004, 12:29 (Ref:827321) | #18 | |||
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Im plenty old enough to see those guys race, the big HP, no brakes to speak of, lousy tyres, no decent downforce (real spoilers)really showed how good these guys were and Pete was one of the really top touring drivers. I shook his hand at Bathurst (and he grinned that grin) and he has gone just a few months later. the speed that guy travelled down Conrod in those Fords lacking proper aerodynamics...pedal to the metal over "the hump" took real courage. A supercar with windtunnel aerodynamics, big brakes and tyres make it so much easier. You young guys-- NEVER forget the ability of those 70s racers! Last edited by Grimace; 4 Jan 2004 at 12:30. |
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4 Jan 2004, 13:11 (Ref:827341) | #19 | ||
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I'd have to check the records, but up until the AU days, I reckon Dick won at least one race every year and I'm pretty sure he was in the hunt more than once. I'm not sure if there are too many others who could boast that |
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"You can get lucky and win one championship but not two ..." Jamie Whincup. I wonder which person with the initials RK he was referring to. |
4 Jan 2004, 21:25 (Ref:827661) | #20 | |||
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These guys werent hamstrung by rules trying to keep the cars even, and the 15 you have listed were spread over 20 plus years. There would be 15 drivers who would not have surprisingly ended up on the podium at any round this year! I was only ten at the time but I do remember a HDT Commodore and a CDT Gemini having a coming together at Bathurst in '82/'83 (after a legal battle over the similar logos), but dosent sportsmanship extend past the racetrack????? |
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4 Jan 2004, 23:06 (Ref:827745) | #21 | ||
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1993 2 1994 1 1995 1 1996 0 1997 0 1998 0 1999 0 1999 was the only year he raced the AU. Last edited by Wrighty05; 4 Jan 2004 at 23:07. |
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"It was dry for the second go-around. Grice, nervous, worrying about his Bathurst jinx, ran 2:25.9. The amazing Brock, using every last centimetre of bitumen, yet keeping the car straight and balanced and at full noise, came back with a staggering 2:20.0 as if to say: "Match that". And people just shook their heads, bit their lips and wondered who would be second". RIP Peter Brock. 1945-2006 |
4 Jan 2004, 23:09 (Ref:827747) | #22 | ||
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"It was dry for the second go-around. Grice, nervous, worrying about his Bathurst jinx, ran 2:25.9. The amazing Brock, using every last centimetre of bitumen, yet keeping the car straight and balanced and at full noise, came back with a staggering 2:20.0 as if to say: "Match that". And people just shook their heads, bit their lips and wondered who would be second". RIP Peter Brock. 1945-2006 |
4 Jan 2004, 23:28 (Ref:827767) | #23 | ||
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Apart from that freak Jim Richards, there are not going to be too many drivers competitive at that age. Do you think Lowndes and Murph and Devil will be making shootouts at 55? |
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"You can get lucky and win one championship but not two ..." Jamie Whincup. I wonder which person with the initials RK he was referring to. |
4 Jan 2004, 23:43 (Ref:827780) | #24 | |||
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5 Jan 2004, 00:44 (Ref:827836) | #25 | ||
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The object of the exercise was to try to rate these drivers for their abilities in every aspect of motor sport which is probably more important now than ever. Like I said, I did this without contriving anything, merely interested to see the results. What I found interesting (even though it is subjective on my behalf) is that the top 3 on the list just happened to win 5 titles each and the 4th driver won 4. The ratings probably show why... Winning titles is about being consistent, kind to the machinery and up for every challenge and Johnson and Skaife have done that - PB won "only" 3 titles over a longer period than both of them. Its all very well to get yourself up for a big one every year (Bathurst) but its a lot harder to maintain momentum over a full season. Thats why (and rightfully so), the drivers place far more importance on winning a title. Moffat in the 70s and Johnson in the 80s had better championship records than Brock. Beechey probably had more fans in the 60s but Pete won the titles. The Ford fans now (of which I am one) hate Skaife with a passion but you simply cannot argue with the guy's record. Anyway, its one way of making a comparison...if you've got a different way, lets have a look at that too. |
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"You can get lucky and win one championship but not two ..." Jamie Whincup. I wonder which person with the initials RK he was referring to. |
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