Non-original cars at Goodwood

[BugEyed]

I'm posting this with a heavy heart as I fear the answer.

The VSCC is all too often criticised by the historic racing community for allowing "specials" built out of period, but of original parts, to compete against original cars. The theory is that this causes the original car to become non-competitive and hence they retire to museums. The lack of original race cars (as opposed to "specials" or Sports-Cars) at recent VSCC events has been cited as proof of this theory. The Goodwood meetings are also cited as proof that the alternative "original" only formula is more successful.

Why is it that a VSCC special, with allround hero Chris Williams driving, was competing at Goodwood in the "Brooklands Trophy for Cars at Brooklands prior to 1955" race this weekend? Fantastic person, excellent driver, superb car, but ...... It appears that the detrators of the "specials" argument are willing to make exceptions (and what an exception! ) but why do the other entrants then not bother to enter VSCC events? :confused: Perhaps it is for other reasons than the generally accepted version..... Perhaps they would care to say why?

Duncan :confused:

PS Edited for spelling and to add:

Yes, I'm aware when when Messrs Llewelyn and Morley first buit a special based upon a Napier Lion and the Sunbeam chassis, but the Bentley chassis was a much later addition. And surely Brooklands closed prior to WWII?

[BugEyed]

So, for example, how many of the Tipo B Alfa's (one ex the Multi-Union) will appear at VSCC meetings this year?

[Slippy Diff]

If Gerry Marshall wanted to race a Vauxhall Vectra they would probably find some way of allowing it to race !

Everyone wants to race at Goodwood. So they handily put their morals to one side, then go and race against the specials at the meeting of the year. This meeting is one big clique, but don't get me wrong, I would have loved to race there, but I wasn't a personality or one of the in crowd.

That sounds a bit like sour grapes doesn't it. Oh well.

[David McKinney]

There's a difference, I think, between allowing an especially appealing non-pukka car to run in a race whose outcome it is unlikely to influence, as happened at Goodwood, and encouraging 21st century cars to race on equal terms against genuine 1920s originals, as the VSCC does.
I don't think anyone would have withdrawn his entry from the Goodwood race because the Napier-Bentley was in it, but they demonstrably do eschew racing against the specials in VSCC vintage races.
And that is written as a VSCC member and an enthusiastic supporter of the club's racing activities.

[TimD]

That's pretty much my opinion too. Bless it's heart, the Bentley Napier didn't exist as the current racing entity until about 1971, I think. On the other hand, it was built in the tradition of the equally delightful Becquet Delage. It's never going to win a race, because it was never designed with that in mind. I'm just happy whenever it makes an appearance - I wander around with a big grin on my face for ages afterwards.

Here's a dilemma for you though. Suppose someone was to find the bits to make a perfect replica of Chitty I. How would you feel about seeing that one race?

[David McKinney]

I personally make a distinction between replicas of original cars (generally acceptable) and 'period' cars built yesterday (not)

[relativtortoise]

If you want a barometer for how you would feel about a Chitty recreation I guess the 'Hornstead' Benz is a good marker. Since Ben had a hand in the creation it is bound to appear at each and every Goodwood event.

Enjoyed the event even if we had a rear brake line fracture on the T51 at the union (seemingly due to resonation despite it's length) resulting in complete loss of pedal just before Madgwick!! Only went to prove it could be done quicker but it was quite a moment.

Never saw Mr & Mrs B in the paddock...did you not come and survey the Richmond and Gordon'ers?

RT

[zefarelly]

so whare does my car stand, not posh I know (but Goodwood eligible), but an original MK1 Cortina GT, pukka car, built and prepared as a replica of a Wilment racer early this year, period spec, but not an original race car . . .its not competitive because Ive built it to period spec . . .what do I do, get my FiA papers and start hot rodding, or sleep easy knowing its as period as and settle with running near the back of the field ?

[JimW]

Originally posted by zefarelly
so whare does my car stand, not posh I know (but Goodwood eligible), but an original MK1 Cortina GT, pukka car, built and prepared as a replica of a Wilment racer early this year, period spec, but not an original race car . . .its not competitive because Ive built it to period spec . . .what do I do, get my FiA papers and start hot rodding, or sleep easy knowing its as period as and settle with running near the back of the field ?

If it feels good - do it. Many of us will enjoy seeing it race and its actual manufactureing details will be of secondary (if any) interest. Sure there are cars which have a history which makes one think "Coo, so-and-so actually raced this car, it is a genuine historic artefact." As long as no-one is trying to pass off one thing as another, so what?

Someone earlier used the word "morals" when talking about a related issue. Seems a bit over the top to me. For the vast majority of us, this is a recreation (whether we are watching or driving). If it stops feeling like fun; why are we still doing it?

(OK I realise that some make a living in or around the business and they have a bigger stake in things. But even then, no one owes them a living.)

Regards

Jim

[rbs]

Did any one look at the Mkvii Jaguars, I do not recall them having disc brakes on the back in their heyday

[D-Type]

This is a broad issue but not, I think, a problem with respect to Goodwood. On another forum someone described Goodwood as being 'a theme park' rather than a race meeting not in a derogatory manner but as a description. The majority of the spectators there are not purists and are there to witness a rose-tinted recreation.

Take myself, I was born well after Brooklands closed (well post-war anyway), so I have to rely on what I read and am told. I am interested to see what the cars were like but I am not that concerned about the detail.

The Bentley-Napier may not have run on the Outer Circuit but similar cars did, e.g. Cobb's Napier-Railton. But, did Bugatti Type 35's or Monoposto Alfa's ever run on the Outer Circuit? I know the Multi Union did, but surely they would normally have been confined to the Campbell and Mountain circuits? To me it doesn't matter, they represent an era rather than an actuality. I was one of many who broke into a grin when the Napier engine was started up and who admired both the the original patina of the red Bugatti and the apparent accuracy of the restoration of the blue ones down to the wired up nuts. The result of the race was irrelevant to me, the spectacle it presented was sufficient.

Away from Goodwood when you come to 'real' historic racing it's a different thing. We have to accept that anybody on a race track is there because he (or she) wants to compete so development is inevitable. But the owners have to strike a balance between 'historic' and 'racing' and draw a line somewhere. When I saw the ERA's I had to pretend that I don't know about the carbon fibre bulkheads, titanium engine components, oversized engines etc. Were I the owner of, say, an Alfa Romeo 308 or 158 to original specifiction I would be extremely miffed to see one of the top ERA's blowing me into the weeds. Provided the basic VSCC ethos of 'in the spirit of the original' is maintained I don't see a problem.

Until the reproduction/ replica/ facsimile/ fake is passed off as the original that is.

[zefarelly]

a few good posts there, one of the major concessions to modernism is obviously safety . . . .a roll cage adds weight, a welcome safety factor, and structural rigidity, 6 of one, half adozen of the other, other mods such as disc brakes make a major difference though, as does material choice in reproduced components, I think the added reliability (given costs) is welcome, but a lack of rule enforcement has created a lot of heavily modified cars and historically incorrect grids and results.

having said all that, at the end of the day, the racing is great to be involved in and fantastic to watch so who really cares ?

[Shep]

I guess the Napier Bentley was racing becauses as said above it is in the spirit of the aero-engined Brooklands specials. I believe the real reason though, is because it is so spectacular and exciting to watch and sticks in people's memories. (I wonder whether Chris Williams was asked to periodically start the engine up in the paddock?)

I race a special in the VSCC, but I believe it takes years and years of development to make a special as quick as original works cars, and I think special makers who achieve this should be commended. I would love to see lots of genuine historic pre-war racing cars at VSCC races like there used to be going back 10 or 20 years. Why there isn't maybe is to do with quick specials, but I don't think this is entirley the reason(?).

[COOPERMAN]

Surely does it harm the appeal of a "period" car if it is updated with more modern safety features such as disc brakes/laminated windscreens etc..? ok roll bars and fire extinguishers are mandatory? but if it means that the cars can be piloted in the manner that there designed to be(and within each drivers skills)then i think it's ok in my opinion just as long as externally it looks as it did when the car was in it's heyday! wasn't there an incident a few years ago at the revival concerning some mustangs in the st marys trophy and the eligibality of them wearing minilites and in the end they had to run "period" steel wheels?

[Slippy Diff]

My race car was built to Appendix 'K' as faithfully as possible. I had to put up with racing against cars that were blatantly cheating.

"I personally make a distinction between replicas of original cars (generally acceptable) and 'period' cars built yesterday (not)"
Interesting quote! So should the replica sharknose Ferrari be allowed to race in historic F1? It was only built a few years ago and is a replica of a period car.

My car was built to the spec that they were built in the early 60's as much as possible i.e. we fitted a full cage, pads were obviously superior etc, but was still faster due to modern materials etc which you can't get away from.
You would not get away with running minilites or rear discs at an FIA Historic race, so why should you at Goodwood which is supposed to be as the good old days were??

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Slippy Diff
"I personally make a distinction between replicas of original cars (generally acceptable) and 'period' cars built yesterday (not)"
Interesting quote! So should the replica sharknose Ferrari be allowed to race in historic F1? It was only built a few years ago and is a replica of a period car.

My comments were made in response to a discussion about 1920s race cars.
In an ideal world I would prefer all historic cars to be original, but that's unrealistic.
The Ferrari you mentioned is in any case too far from original spec to be raced, though I have to admit I'd rather see a Lancia D50 replica (or reconstruction) racing than no Lancia D50 at all.
Much of the discussion on this thread has been about saloons, which are a different kettle of fish altogether. You'd be hard-pressed to find one of the Mk VII Jags that raced in the 1950s, so clearly the only way to see such cars racing is with reconstructions.
But of course they, and saloons from later eras, should be to period spec.

[simon drabble]

I personnally dont have a problem with replica's so long as they are running to FIA spec. I think that the race programme should differentiate between the real and replica's. That way the viewing public would be able to see why some cars are driven a tad more aggressively than others! My Eleven has its original 1957 bodywork on it and I would quite like to keep it like that as a result I will not drive in the same manner as someone with a modern built replica built round a chassis plate.
The tin tops are a different story as david rightly says they are virtually all recent conversions from road cars but the FIA argument should still remain the same and if a car had drums in period then they should run with them.
I think the important thing is to not distort history. HSCC running Alfa's with 2 litre engines and Anglia's with 1500 engines is a classic example.

[Peter Mallett]

[Off Topic] (Slightly anyway).

I generally agree with the FIA rules thing in order to provide consistency across the Historic/Classic racing world. Also the point about Saloons is well made concerning the "real" age of the vehicle.[/Off Topic]

To take the point of originality, its a bit like "grandfather's watch". How original are the "original" cars? Certainly not replicas but with all the modern parts only the severest pedant could complain that they are non original.

Then there are the modernised cars. If as in my case the cars were run in championship configuration with rear disc brakes (although the road version had drums) does this affect their eligibility for racing?

Hmm.

[Peter Horsman]

I wonder what that red A35 had spinning under its bonnet? A period 998cc lump unable to go beyond 6000? Maybe. But it provided the greatest cheer from the crowd (few of whom have heard of FIA papers) who will remember Goodwood (and historic racing) affectionately because of it. Goodwood is a spectacle and a commercial venture organised by a benign dictator and his team, and the better for it. He can do what he wants!!

The trickier area surrounds FIA historic events.

[zefarelly]

Good point Peter, the debate rages when the 'Goodwood winners' come out to play with the FiA cars, thats when people get miffed at the unlevel playing field

Goodwood is spectacular in every sense, but saloons (being my thing) are massively varied in spec and eligibility.

I have an histoic (Fia) spec car but can't afford to do the Fia series, so I'm in with the hotrods, as good as they may be at entertaining people, it doesnt make a fair race of it really

[BugEyed]

Originally posted by BugEyed
... why do the other entrants then not bother to enter VSCC events? :confused: Perhaps it is for other reasons than the generally accepted version..... Perhaps they would care to say why?

So no answer so far.

In the absence of any answers to the contrary:

• they prefer the atmosphere of Goodwood to modern circuits.
• The "specials" selected are not supposed to be competetive.
• They are only racing to win, hence the commentators concern about the performance of the Dixon Riley against the P3 Alfas.

Anyone care to suggest otherwise?

Duncan

[Shep]

Duncan, in reply, maybe more 'Glamour' at other events more spectators???

I know some cars are invited to race at these events, whereas VSCC you submit an entry fee (which is lower than most other races). But if you can afford one of these cars that surely isn't a problem. There are people who won't go to social evenings unless they get a personal invite...

Could it be that if you have a genuine ex-works racer, the pressure is on you to win? And being beaten by a special is 'egg on your face'? Wouldn't fuss me (love to have a chance to drie these cars), but there are some real quick VSCC racers (as you know) who know how to race!

[Henrik Pedersen]

After I have seen this debate, I cannot se why people build cars that are not historic correct.
The whole purpose of historic racing is to race the cars that our heros did, in cars similar to those, i.e. with the same specification. And this is very important, the same specification.
I fully understand Zefarelly´s frustration in racing against non-FIA cars, with ALL kinds of modern tecnology, that wasn´t around in the good old days. And he gets overtaken at races, very frustrating
I will never enter a race where cars not comforming to the FIA homologationspapers are allowed.
I was in the 2001 Revival Meeting with my 63 Cortina GT, I was up against some very special cars ( non-FIA cars, but homologation-specials) but they had some special person at the wheel. Althought it was pointed out to me that it was importend to have the cars as original as in the 60´s ??
I strongly recommend that the rules should be enforced more by to book and spirit, than by what is possibel.

Regards
Henrik Pedersen

[Steve Wilkinson]

I have just bought an Elan S4. It was first registered in 1970 and back in 1999/2000 underwent the customary full rebuild. It had a new chassis to 26R specification. It was fitted with a Rollcage. It had 4 point harnesses fitted and 26R wheel arches.

I wouldn't pay the sort of price that a genuine 26R would bring however I do not intend to enter my Elan as a 26R, however it will be entered as a 26.

It could never be sold as a 26R and I would never try to pass it off as anything other than what it is.

The problem lies with unscrupulous people who are out to maximise their returns on what is nothing more than a 'recreation'.

[simon drabble]

so will you be entering it into pre 66 events even though its a 1970 car? presumably it wont be eligible for FIA papers though?