Brooklands pic to identify

[AUSTRIA]

Hello all, it has been a long time since I posted here.

Now I have an unsolved puzzle. Who can help me? I can recognize an Austro Daimler and behind it Archie's 'Kim II'. Every additional info is appreciated. I even don't know the event and date. I assume it is 1922. Here is the picture:

[TimD]

Good to see you again!

Perplexed by the picture, I have to say. The number discs, especially the "61" appear very similar to the 200 mile race discs, but the numbering doesn't tally with anything I've got on record. 86 is a very high number indeed for a Brooklands event.

Kim II was last raced at Brooklands in 1921, I believe, although I'd be delighted to be corrected on that. If it is Brooklands, what are the buildings in the background? I can't immediately identify those.

A puzzle indeed!

[Peter Mallett]

Good point about the buildings. What makes you sure it is Brooklands Austria?

[David McKinney]

I'm pretty sure it's Brooklands - there were buildings like that down the end of the Paddock. Also, I can't think where else Archie F-N might have been with Kim II.
When first looking at the mystery car on the right the word "Alvis" jumped into my mind but it might be George Newman's Wolseley Ten. I'm not putting any money on it though.

[AUSTRIA]

Brooklands: I'm not sure at all. It was my first impression, but when browsing through my Brooklands-pictures I wasn't able to find that buildings on one single picture! But what else could it be? With both cars, 'Kim' and the 'spade'-Sascha? And this Brooklands-1921/22-type numbers ?

Sascha: When the works went to Sizily with four cars, the noses of theses four (lightcoloured) cars were marked with a unique emblem: 'heart', 'diamond', 'spade' or 'club'. Has anybody seen a picture of one of the JCC-200-miles-1922-Patrick-Saschas, especially Campbell's car? Most probably the car #86 is a works-owned Sascha, maybe on loan. Earliest appearence of the Sascha was the Targa Florio 1922 ! So we can forget 1921 FOR SURE.

Kim II: As far as I know, KIM II was raced intensively only in 1921. I do not know, if it was also Archies car in the JCC200 of 1922.

All together, it is hard to believe, that the puzzle is that tough. What about the Whitsun or August Bank Holiday meetings, both 1922. Can they be exclude by the numbers?

[Vitesse]

Tim: is it absolutely certain that Campbell didn't race in the 1922 200? WB's account is somewhat ambiguous, stating that the special Austro-Daimler he was awaiting was scratched. He doesn't say whether or not Campbell took part. Might he have filed another (late) entry for the Sascha? Or perhaps he used it as a practice car and was allotted a different number for it?

In Boddy's "Brooklands" the Sascha at the Whitsun meeting is said to have been the Spade car. I have a copy of the Autocar report, but no picture of it there: all visible numbers are much lower and no vertical tail plates which, as Tim says, were a JCC200 trademark.

David : I thought it looked a bit small to be the Wolseley. Crouch's Enfield-Allday? The cowl looks to be modelled on the 1921 Talbot-Darracqs.

[AUSTRIA]

I have zoomed the mystery-car a bit:



The Wolseley in 1922 with a very similar nose, no bad guess:



But I believe, #61 is the special-built Aston-Martin for track-racing and speed-records. Have a look.
First pic is the 1921-outfit.
And the second pic is, how it looked after its update (possibly early 1922):

[Vitesse]

Oh, and while I have your attention, Tim and David, would either of you happen to have the full (or partial) result of the 1938 Siam Trophy?

[David McKinney]

I think you've cracked it with the Aston Martin, Austria

Siam Trophy 1938:
1st Bira (ERA C) by a second from Dobson (ERA) with Wakefield (ERA) 3rd
Only other name mentioned in my records is Minetti (Maserati 6CM), who was initial leader

[TimD]

Siam Trophy results from my records:

1 B Bira 9 ERA 73.33mph
2 Arthur Dobson 6 ERA R7B
3 Johnny Wakefield 10 ERA

r Bert Hadley 7 Austin 750 ohv racer
r Andrew Cuddon-Fletcher 3 MG K3 Magnette stub axle
r George Abecassis 4 Alta 61IS 1500 valve gear
r Ian Connell 11 ERA R6B radiator
r Eugenio Minetti 12 Maserati 6CM
r Tony Rolt 2 ERA R5B

other entrants (unknown - either dnf, non placed or non starters!)
Robin Hanson 1 Alta 1500
PW Maclure 5 Riley
Bob Ansell 8 ERA R9B
Peter Aitken 14 ERA

[TimD]

I'm afraid I'm relying on the Autocar, Motor and Boddy for the 1922 200-mile result as well, and nothing I've seen suggests that either Austro-Daimler ran that day. However, I'm confident that we can rule out the 1922 200-miles in any case because the highest race number in the programme was 22, being Miller's Wolseley. AF-N ran a GN in the cyclecar class, but again nothing in my records suggests it was "Kim II".

I concur with the conclusion about the Aston Martin though. This might help us yet.

[AUSTRIA]

Tim, what about the buildings in the background? First of all we should clarify, if it is Brooklands for sure.

[TimD]

I'm still not sure about the buildings - I don't recognise them at all. I'm also concerned by the dusty, tracked nature of the surface the cars are resting on. I was almost tempted to start digging out records for some of the big sand races of the period. I'm sure that would be a blind alley.

Regarding your point about the other 1922 meetings. I can rule out Whitsun because I've got the programme and the highest race number that day was 12! Campbell DID compete that day in a Sascha though. He finished 4th in the 75mph Short Handicap, carrying number 10. Race order was as follows:

1 Eric Longden 11 Eric-Longden V Twin
2 Reginald Empson 2 Crouch
3 Woolf Barnato 7 Ansaldo 2 litre
4 Capt Malcolm Campbell 10 Austro Daimler Sascha
5 Bertram Marshall 5 Hampton Racer
6 WG Barlow 2 Bentley 3 litre
7 Felix Scriven 4 Austin 20 Super Sports “Sgt Murphy”
8 Hon GA Egerton 1 Bentley 3 litre

EC Davison 3 Calthorpe
JW Tollady 6 Crouch
J Campion 9 ABC

In the process, he ran a bearing and so non-started in the car's other race for the day, the 75 Long. Race number allocated to him for that was 9. All other Campbell efforts that day were using the "Blue Bird" GP Peugeot.

The August race I don't have complete lists for, but the Autocar's preview had no mention of any Austro-Daimlers in the entry. Back in the old days, The Autocar had the very useful habit of publishing unnumbered entry lists the preceding week correct at the time of going to press.

[Peter Mallett]

Well if it isn't Brooklands and may be a UK circuit, could we be looking at Donington or wasn't that around then?

[AUSTRIA]

No chance for Donington. We are talking of 1922. But maybe we have to consider a venue outside the british mainland.

By the way: What was the exact date of the Siam Trophy ?

[David McKinney]

OK, I've had a closer look at the photo I thought showed similar buildings at Brooklands, and now realise I was wrong.
If it wasn't Brooklands, it might well have been one of the countless speed trial venues used in the early '20s

[Vitesse]

Originally Posted by TimD

I'm afraid I'm relying on the Autocar, Motor and Boddy for the 1922 200-mile result as well, and nothing I've seen suggests that either Austro-Daimler ran that day. However, I'm confident that we can rule out the 1922 200-miles in any case because the highest race number in the programme was 22, being Miller's Wolseley. AF-N ran a GN in the cyclecar class, but again nothing in my records suggests it was "Kim II".

The 2001 edition of Boddy's Brooklands book has a picture of the GN team in 1922. His caption suggests that it was Kim II. The cars had a strange cowl fitted to the front, suggesting some sort of regulation regarding frontal area.

Tim, David: thnks for that. Fills a few gaps! I can add times for Bira (18'33"), Dobson (18'34") and Wakefield (19'03"). Date was October 15th

I was leaning towards some sort of seafront or beach event too: the crowd in the background look like they're standing on some sort of sea wall. Southport maybe?

[Vitesse]

Oh, and a couple of queries on the Siam. Presumably Cuddon-Fletcher would have been in Parnell's 1400cc K3? Any clue on Maclure's car - the 1500 or 2000? As the race was for up to 2000 u/s, it might have been the bigger one.

[jamesholland]

I don't agree with the identification of the mystery car as the Aston Martin shown in the photograph - look at the first picture again carefully and you will see the radiator cowl is significantly wider at the bottom whereas on the Aston it is the same width all the way down. I can't suggest an alternative though but I'll have a trawl through my books to see what I can find.

As to the venue I wonder if it might be a sand race meeting such as Southport which was an important venue at the time.

[ss_collins]

I'm not convinced that it is the aston - the aston looks bigger...

[David McKinney]

Originally Posted by jamesholland

As to the venue I wonder if it might be a sand race meeting such as Southport which was an important venue at the time.

Not if it's 1921 we're talking about

[AUSTRIA]

David, there was no Sascha in 1921! First appearence of this type happened in the Targa Florio 1922.

[jamesholland]

Originally Posted by David McKinney

Not if it's 1921 we're talking about

I beg your pardon, David.
Could it have been another sand racing venue?

[David McKinney]

Excellent point, Austria. I was basing my comment on an earlier suggestion that AFN did not run Kim II in 1922

James
I'd need to check on that
What I was trying to say was that Southport started as pretty small beer, and didn't gain national significance until the later 1920s

[D-Type]

Where else might it be?
Isle of Man, Jersey, Weston super Mare, Brighton come to mind as they are (seaside) places that have held motor sport events. Could it be a hillclimb? Or is it too open for that?