A Proper Indy Start?

[racer69]

Will this year see the return of a 'proper start' to the Indianapolis 500, reminiscant of the likes of the Andretti's vs Cheever in 1992, or Robby Gordon's attack on the Montoya and Ray in 2000?

2002 and 2003 were very poor, cars spaced out way too much. Last years was an improvement, but Rice and Wheldon just seemed to line-up single file.

Will we see a start this year with the drivers on top of eachother?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by racer69

Will this year see the return of a 'proper start' to the Indianapolis 500, reminiscant of the likes of the Andretti's vs Cheever in 1992, or Robby Gordon's attack on the Montoya and Ray in 2000?

2002 and 2003 were very poor, cars spaced out way too much. Last years was an improvement, but Rice and Wheldon just seemed to line-up single file.

Will we see a start this year with the drivers on top of eachother?

With the three guys who sit on the front row, expect a good start this year....



But it is the starter's call to wave off the green if he thinks they are not gridded properly...

[rustyfan]

As long as we don't see a start like the ones in 1966, 1973, 1982 and 1995, I'll be happy.

[BootsOntheSide]

True Rusty, we don't want the cars literally on top of each other. Starters always try to avoid waving the start off, because it delays the action and the result isn't usually any bette,r but there are times when it should be done.

[racer69]

Would they wave off an Indy 500 start? If any start was calling to be waved it was the 2002 one, the allignment was shocking when they got to the flag, but they let that one go.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

As long as we don't see a start like the ones in 1966, 1973, 1982 and 1995, I'll be happy.

The Stan Fox crash happened right in front of me....one of the fiercest and scariest crashes I have ever seen at Indy....

Ripped the nose right off of the car and you could see his legs all twisted and mangled sticking out of the car once it came to rest....

I just want a safe, clean start, too....

[rustyfan]

Yeah Fox was very lucky to survive that one, albeit having his career ended by the severe head injury he suffered.

It never ceases to amaze me, however, that he didn't suffer any major injuries to his legs in that crash, despite initially flying through the air and then sliding all the way down into turn two with them completely exposed.

[NJDMONEY]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

With the three guys who sit on the front row, expect a good start this year....



But it is the starter's call to wave off the green if he thinks they are not gridded properly...

It is Race Control's call on the wave off, not the starters.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by NJDMONEY

It is Race Control's call on the wave off, not the starters.

That is true, and I stand corrected....

and welcome to the Forum!

Let's put it this way...once the Pace Car pulls off the track, the Pole Sitter sets the field pace to ultimately take the Green Flag....

Unless either the Pole Sitter completely lags back while others step on the gas and get a huge jump on him, or unless people in middle rows start passing people before the flag is waved to start the race, Race Control would rather have a "Clean" start than a bunched up one that could cause a major accident....

Like 1982, when Kevin Cogan jumped on the throttle on either cold tires or in the wrong gear and took out a bunch of the contenders in the first few rows....

Or like the crash in 1973 that sent Salt Walther into the fence because cars from rows behind him were passing people before they should have been and 4-5 cars wide creates problems on the main straight.

If no one gets a serious jump or advantage, but they start sliding and sorting into a racing line to create a clean start, Race Control will give go-ahead for the Green Flag....

Personally....I'm not anticipating a problem this year, because they spend a lot of time in the Driver's meeting on this very subject...

Sure, things can happen where a car gets loose like Gary Bettenhausen did in 1995 and Stan Fox had no place to go but into the wall and airborne through the short chute....

But that doesn't happen that often at Indy....

and as they tell the drivers every year:

- You can't win the race on the first lap, and

- with 3-cars wide, the turbulence and the draft - especially for the back 1/3 of the field - are much greater than you normally experience

and being careful until tires get up to temp and speeds get up to where the aero elements work is the best way for everyone to start the race...

[racer69]

Worth remembering about the Fox/Cheever crash in 1995 is that the crash wasn't caused because of a tight start, Fox was well into turn 1 when the car got away from him and threw him right, into Cheever.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by racer69

Worth remembering about the Fox/Cheever crash in 1995 is that the crash wasn't caused because of a tight start, Fox was well into turn 1 when the car got away from him and threw him right, into Cheever.

While true enough I'd still count it as a start-crash and I don't think anyone has suggested that particular crash happened because of a messy lineup either (unlike 1982 and 1973 as mentioned by Tim above) - only that it's a type of start one would rather not see.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by racer69

Worth remembering about the Fox/Cheever crash in 1995 is that the crash wasn't caused because of a tight start, Fox was well into turn 1 when the car got away from him and threw him right, into Cheever.

Actually, Gary Bettenhausen's car swapped ends in Turn 1 and made contact with Fox, who had nowhere to go but into Cheever.....I watched it from the Southeast Vista....

and it was not intended as a "Tight Start" comment....sometimes there is an incident that happens when you get 33 cars heading into the same corner and getting up to speed....

But if the entire field doesn't make it through Turn 1, wouldn't that qualify for consideration as a "Start Crash"????

I would sure call the Jeff Bucknum-Scott Dixon crach at Motegi a "Start Crash" because they completed 0 laps.....

But back to Stan Fox & Gary B.....

On that particular day, it had rained heavily the day and night before and the track was very green, which I'm sure was a factor in Bettenhausen's car getting loose in Turn 1.

I just hope we have a "Clean" start without an Incident...period

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Actually, Gary Bettenhausen's car swapped ends in Turn 1 and made contact with Fox, who had nowhere to go but into Cheever.....I watched it from the Southeast Vista....

From what I can remember from the race coverage and video replays it was actually Fox who lost the backend in turn one and when the grip returned it shot back the other way (similar to how Danny Ongais and Gordon Smiley had their awful accidents in 1981 and 1982, respectively) and speared head-on into the wall, taking Cheever with him.

(Not to mention Bettenhausen's last start was in the 1993 event.)

[Team Owner]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

With the three guys who sit on the front row, expect a good start this year....



But it is the starter's call to wave off the green if he thinks they are not gridded properly...

Actually it's the Directors ( Brian Barnhart ) call whether to wave off the start or not. It would be hard to imagine him doing it though.

[Refutation]

Did Scott Sharp wreck on the first lap the last time he started on the front row

[William Dale Jr]

Tim, are you sure you're not getting mixed up with the 1991 start, where I think Gary B. looped it at turn 1, lap 1 and Buddy Lazier tagged the wall whilst taking evasive action? IIRC, the 1991 start was delayed because they were still drying the track out after it rained earlier in the morning.

Also, was it driver error or mechanical failure that sent Fox into Cheever? I don't remember seeing the car get loose, only the car turning sharply right.


On the spacing of the cars, having not seen a 500 since '95, I was surprised to see just how much space was being left between the rows on the last few year's starts. Whilst it would be nice to see them bunched closer together for the start (at least have the entire field on the straight when the green is waved!), the increased spacing makes for a cleaner, safer start so I suppose it's better.

[Tim Northcutt]

He wrecked from the Pole....

Got a hair too low going into Turn 1 and put his left-side tires onto the white line....

BTW....

The outside of Row 1 usually provides the best line in the "Groove to hit Turn 1, so if he stands on it, he could very well lead the 1st Lap....

[Tim Northcutt]

I wasn't at the 1991 race....but I was at the 1995 Race...

I know it was a Glidden car that swapped ends...was Lazier driving for Menard that year???

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by William Dale Jr

Also, was it driver error or mechanical failure that sent Fox into Cheever? I don't remember seeing the car get loose, only the car turning sharply right.

Fox lost it on his own. I hope this is ok with the mods since it's just a few seconds long and of historical importance, but anyway, here's a clip of it taken from the wall-mounted camera:

Stan Fox, 1995
(Right-click and select "save as..." to download / 1,5MB)

You'll notice that it happened almost exactly like the crashes of Danny Ongais in 1981 and Gordon Smiley in 1982 - with the difference, of course, that Fox took someone with him. Just as destructive nontheless.

[Tim Northcutt]

I stand corrected....I somehow remembered it differently, but video doesn't lie...

Thanks for the link