Car Vs Driver

Tf105 · 17 Aug 2005, 01:59 (Ref:1384217)

What makes a GP winner?.. Car or Driver?

We've seen domination from the renaults... if Sato was in the driver seat..would it be the same?... What if Alonso was in a Jordan?

If F1 was a single manufacturer series.... what driver would be in the series' "driver seat"?

So.. is F1 more a show of car or driver?

DKGandBH · 17 Aug 2005, 02:23 (Ref:1384227)

Obviously the Car + Driver (In that order).

M Schumacher is arguably (but not by me) the best driver out there, but he is not winning.

DKGandBH

nkfan · 17 Aug 2005, 05:02 (Ref:1384267)

Car definetly, put Alonso and kimi in jordan and lets see if they can win !

Kicking-back · 17 Aug 2005, 05:20 (Ref:1384272)

In equal cars, centrally maintained, I believe Kimi Raikkonen would now be showing the others the way home.

Gt_R · 17 Aug 2005, 05:46 (Ref:1384290)

The influence of the car advantage is too huge for even a supreme driver to overcome.

Cars first, then drivers.

Even when talking about drivers, some can influence the quality of the team, and hence the cars. Some drivers are merely there to drive.

jb59892 · 17 Aug 2005, 07:08 (Ref:1384321)

If there were no cars, there wouldn't be motor racing .......

**Adam43** · 17 Aug 2005, 07:56 (Ref:1384357)

F1 is about car and driver. Always has been. I hope that never changes, although perhaps it can be tweaked. However it isn't that far off my ideal.

There is also no need to change it to 100% driver as there are serious out there that cater for this. So rather than try to alter something away from how it has always been why not try one of those other series.

Big-O · 17 Aug 2005, 09:07 (Ref:1384406)

In my opinion you need car+team and then the driver ... A brilliant driver can't do any thing on a bad car ....

BootsOntheSide · 17 Aug 2005, 10:02 (Ref:1384448)

The car has a much bigger effect on the results than the driver, I can't beleive that anyone would dispute this. Look at how even then 2 cars from the same team tend to be, even if the drivers are percieved to be of vastly differing abilities - if you put a Mianrdi 5th-from-last we talk of it as a tremendous effort.

BSchneiderFan · 17 Aug 2005, 10:26 (Ref:1384464)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big-O

A brilliant driver can't do any thing on a bad car ....

Barcelona, Spa and Monza 1996?

Glen · 17 Aug 2005, 11:11 (Ref:1384501)

Whilst it is obviously true that the car comes first, it is equally UNtrue to extend that reasoning to suggest that the driver doesn't make any difference - because if that were the case we wouldn't see the consistent difference between team-mates in equal machinery.

Racer_kyle · 17 Aug 2005, 12:01 (Ref:1384549)

Well obviously the car is the main factor. However put Alonso,Schumi or Kimi in , say a Toyota, and they'd probably be able to squeeze a bit more outta the car, perhaps even getting a win or two.

krt917 · 17 Aug 2005, 12:30 (Ref:1384579)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Even when talking about drivers, some can influence the quality of the team, and hence the cars. Some drivers are merely there to drive.

Yes, the relationship between car and driver these days means that you can't always judge a driver's worth just on what they do in the car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

F1 is about car and driver. Always has been. I hope that never changes, although perhaps it can be tweaked. However it isn't that far off my ideal.

I agree, though I'd perhaps do a bit more tweeking than you, Adam. F1, indeed top-level motor racing, has always been about the drivers and the cars. I'm not a huge fan of one-make series and, often, factors such as money come mean the playing field is rarely level.

One of the problems I see that F1 has at the moment is that the car makes up too much of the performance of a given package. It really is hard now for a great driver to make more than a few tenths difference over a good driver. I' get rid of certain things (as Glen nows

), but I would never advocate a one-make approach to Formula 1. Cars (& car variety) are as much a part of motor racing as the drivers.

CobraSVT · 17 Aug 2005, 12:35 (Ref:1384585)

Car, and a bit the driver. but all driver's are good anyway
so Car.

If all the cars were the same, Jacques Villeneuve would be in front
that's an obviousness

oh and no a great driver can't do much in a bad car
but i've seen JV doing some amazing things in his mediocre sauber
it just seems to be that JV has that racer capability (i hope he still has it)
which I dont know if the other drivers have it at all
Shumacher doesnt

You know.. something like Senna and Prost had

krt917 · 17 Aug 2005, 12:43 (Ref:1384599)

struggling to tell whether above post is for real or not, so moving on...

I think that it is fair to say that a driver can make the difference in a car and win in a car that isn't the best. However, I think that we've got to the point where, because the driver is a smaller percentage, that not-so-good car still has to be within mere tenths for a driver to be able to make the difference. Previously, I think a great driver could have got wins in something more of the pace than that, though of course there is still the odd opportunity in the wet.

garcon · 17 Aug 2005, 12:50 (Ref:1384606)

It's not all the car, and it's not all the driver.

It takes a great team with the right funding and designers to produce a car that will be competitive, amongst the top three or four teams.

It takes a great driver to use that competitive car to the best of his ability to win a WDC.

i.e. it's the car that gets you competitive, but it's the driver who wins you races.

Oaksnaf · 17 Aug 2005, 12:53 (Ref:1384610)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

i.e. it's the car that gets you competitive, but it's the driver who wins you races.

That pretty much sums it up. Totally agreed.

No Nissany is going to win in a Ferrari. No Michael Schumacher is going to win in a Minardi (although Martini could have).

Its really an age old argument, which comes down the boring answer, but totally logical, and totally correct statement which garcon made.

BSchneiderFan · 17 Aug 2005, 12:53 (Ref:1384611)

One ought not also to overlook the contribution that the driver makes to the quality of the car in the first place.

Oaksnaf · 17 Aug 2005, 12:59 (Ref:1384615)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

One ought not also to overlook the contribution that the driver makes to the quality of the car in the first place.

But the driver is the weakest point in any team. That should also be put into consideration.

Glen · 17 Aug 2005, 13:15 (Ref:1384632)

Cobra SVT takes the prize for the funniest post today. That Schumacher - he's got nothing.

BSchneiderFan · 17 Aug 2005, 13:22 (Ref:1384637)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oaksnaf

But the driver is the weakest point in any team. That should also be put into consideration.

How so? I hardly think Michael Schumacher is the "weakest point" at Ferrari.

Oaksnaf · 17 Aug 2005, 13:31 (Ref:1384650)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

How so? I hardly think Michael Schumacher is the "weakest point" at Ferrari.

Well my opinion probably wont be shared, but a driver is the one who locks the brakes, a driver is the one who crashes at turn 1. The driver is the one who can blow a 45 second race lead by crashing at Monaco. The driver holds most of the responsibility to finish the race which makes them a non-calculated variable in a carefully calcuated equation. A driver in the end, however awesome, will be the weakest link in the team, in my opinion.

Can a driver cause a mechanical failure, yes they can. Can a driver throw away a GP win, yes Kimi did at Nurburg.

Is Michael Schumacher the weakest link at Ferrari. Well yes. Same with Kimi, same with Alonso, Fisi, Rubens, Montoya.

mixxer · 17 Aug 2005, 13:44 (Ref:1384658)

I actually think its more down to the various engineers who design the components that make up the car which have the biggest input to its success.
The drivers that provide good solid feedback still require an engineer who is able to interpret that information and then translate that into improved performance, of course I may be biased

Marbot · 17 Aug 2005, 13:50 (Ref:1384662)

I'm sure that most engineers would prefer 100% car,0% driver.

Kicking-back · 17 Aug 2005, 13:57 (Ref:1384664)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oaksnaf

Can a driver cause a mechanical failure, yes they can. Can a driver throw away a GP win, yes Kimi did at Nurburg.

Is Michael Schumacher the weakest link at Ferrari. Well yes. Same with Kimi, same with Alonso, Fisi, Rubens, Montoya.

You're more likely to retire from a race because of mechanical failure these days than through the driver crashing.

Is the driver still the weakest link?

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