Who's responsible?

[Jaxs]

Who is responsible when connnecting the tow rope? I have heard various statements, it should be left to the recovery crews, Marshals should not become involved becasue of the possible damage.

What is the 'official' line?

[JABWOA]

I would say it comes down to those with the experiance (be it recovery crew or marshal) From my experiance down under, the recovery crew usually have enough personnel for that (any assistance I'd give would just be additional grunt where directed or track cleanup.)

It comes down to what are you comfortable doing (based on your knowledge and experiance), be it actually going trackside, attaching a tow rope or even giving medical assistance in an accident.

[archaic gold]

This could open a whole can of worms! Marshals are asked, at times, to have ready on certain known corners, strops so that the minimum of delay in recovery is made once a Recovery Unit is on the scene. In many Race Meetings, time in clear-up is of the essence so this action helps. The larger problem arises in the loading of cars onto flat-beds. The recovery operator is at the controls of the "HIAB", what ever, and normally has only one other person in attendance. I would say that only one of those two persons actually places the 'lifting' strops onto a car, and I speak of mainly single-seaters in this context.
But, again, with Manito/JCB type vehicles on a quick "snatch", there is only one operator and he can not leave the vehicle!
The other 'worm' creeping out is the steadying of a car onto a flat-bed. One Club near to me did issue Industrial Safety Helmets for those Marshals in danger spots, and likely to be hit by swinging cars on the end of a lift.
On a different note, I did once see a flat-bed recovery being made where the only person wearing a safety helmet, was the flat-bed driver sitting in his cab!!

[RIXGE]

I guess it depends on the circuit. My experience of Donington for example, the tractor crew do the job aided by marshals. Then again this depends on the number of cars required to be moved. At Silverstone with a landrover with you on post, you have previously discussed with the driver who will be doing what, and in which order, and again if there are multiple cars involved.My experience three years ago at Oulton, where we were at Druids, is you let the wrecker crew do the whole job. ( jobs-worth comes to mind ) !
I think it also becomes a factor if the incident is under waved yellows, safety car or a race stoppage/ check flag.We all react to pressure in different ways, this can and does influence our reaction time. Each and every one of us will have had a different experience with each circuit and recovery crew, some better some worse; I know i have.

Cheers Rick.

[b1ackcr0w]

While on the subject, I read a while ago (I think the source was the MSF's "The Marshal"), that the biggest cause of reported injuries on race days to officials were incidents as a result of breaking or damaged tow ropes. Is this still the case? Has anybody got any reliable facts on this?

[archaic gold]

Not sure, Blackcrow, but the golden rule is "do not stand near a Tow Truck and a stricken car". Why, the strop may break, or, more likely, the tow hook become detached from the car with the strain, and it will then just fly. Had one case with a hothatch being towed out backwards form a gravel trap, and the strop broke, leaving the shackle to smash through the rear window of the hothatch!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by RIXGE

My experience three years ago at Oulton, where we were at Druids, is you let the wrecker crew do the whole job. ( jobs-worth comes to mind ) !

That 'jobsworth' comment is a totally unwarranted slur on some of the most professional recovery (NOT 'wrecker'!) crews at any of the circuits I've marshalled at. I marshal regularly at Oulton; I'm happy to hand over to the recovery crew when they arrive at an incident, for one simple reason: they know what they are doing.

[archaic gold]

Agreed, Dave, D & G have been at Brands Hatch for more years than I can remember and always turn out with smart recovery vehicles, well supervised by Garry, and plenty of trained staff. The back-up crews driving the Unimog and the JCBs ar part of the weekday Marshals force and have to be trained before they can operate!! Wreckers; NO!!, Recovery Operators; YES!.

[b1ackcr0w]

Yup, has anybody got any idea about whether the reduction in the amount of natural fibre tow ropes has had any effect of the frequency of incidents?

[scorch]

The simple answer is leave it to the people who know what they are doing.

And i feel I should also point out that there is big difference between snatching during a race and recovery.

In snatching if you have been trained on the techniques of connecting a car with the minimum of damage etc... and the vechicle is not manned they by all means help. BUT if you are dealing with a recovery unit, either a tow vechicle or a 'Hi-ab' type then leave it to the crews.

If you really want to help, ASK!!! do not just grab a strop and start this will always annoy the crew they know the cabilities of the vechcle leave them to it.

[B and H]

Originally Posted by RIXGE

.....My experience three years ago at Oulton, where we were at Druids, is you let the wrecker crew do the whole job. ( jobs-worth comes to mind ) !.......

Sorry, but as a member of the Silverstone recovery crew, who turn up to EVERY race meeting as an unpaid volunteer, I take exception to this description. We pride ourselves on doing our job to a professional and high standard. Whether we are dealing with hugely expensive F1's or rather less expensive vehicles, they are all dealt with with utmost care - whatever the level of damage already inflicted, the driver and marshals on post can be sure that when we turn up the car will NOT be damaged further, and WILL be dealt with appropriately. My partner has been undertaking recoveries at Silverstone for many, many years, and knows exactly what is required, no matter how difficult the recovery might be. This level of experience means that the job is done quickly, proficiently and intelligently - it's not just a case of attaching a rope and hoping for the best. Recovery is a discipline that requires skill and judgement. I think it's a bit off when a fellow marshal has such a poor attitude to what is a demanding and potentially dangerous discipline.

Having just had a busy weekend at Silverstone - especially Sunday afternoon when the weather was 'challenging' for the drivers to say the least, it is a bit disappointing to read this sort of stuff.

[archaic gold]

On my rare visits to Silverstone (these days!) I have witnessed the JCB guys at Brooklands and Copse and I can assure you all; they know their stuff!! After all, would they be let loose on a F1 unless they did???

[RIXGE]

What a fickle lot you all are! I don`t appear to have made any such comments regarding silverstone recovery, i have seen first hand, and on many occasions, their professional attitude to their work, and their friendly manner in which they go about it, i would also like to add that i believe they are the most professional in doing so.
Now before you all gang up on me and poke my eyes out with sharp sticks, you will allow me to elaborate....
The incident happened at Oulton, Druids bend, damp track. We hadn`t been troubled all weekend so had no idea as to the skills of our ( RECOVERY) crew, who were parked along side us. We were a little disconcerted by their lack of fitness and general condition, which, given the fact they were asleep was a tad worrying!
A third of the way through the Formula Renault race, we had our first visitor, buried deep in the gravel.The poor lad didn`t want to get out, thinking he could spin his way out and on to finish. We finally got through to him that he was`nt going anywhere, so he reluctantly removed the wheel and got out.
It was a this point that our recovery crew ( used very loosely) decided to wake up and jump into a somewhat frenzied action. I wont go into detail, but what happened next was both disgusting, and a dereliction of duty in my opinion,and left the poor driver in tears, having totally ignored his pleas to be careful with has car.
The attitude of the recovery driver was unbelievable to us all, he just would not listen to anybody, there was only one way to do the job, and that was his way. Words were exchanged by the driver of the F/R, which i can`t print, but we had to console to the driver and keep him out of harms way. I for one, would have had no hesitation in backing up the driver of the F/R, had the matter proceded futher. The recovery driver was neither use or ornament. This is the reason i used the phrase wrecker crew.
There are other instances i can mention too.
Generally though, all forms of snatch, recovery, call them what you will, are of a very high standard, they have to be. I am only giving my thoughts to you as allowed by this forum. I hope that any offence taken by some people was short lived.

[archaic gold]

Thank you for your detailed explanation, and perhaps we can accept your apology. I think if you had made the point a little more clearly in the first instance, you would have received less flak!!!! Happy Marshalling!

[RIXGE]

Fair comment, but why should i apologize for your lack of judgement in my comments ! Read the original posting, but with the knowledge you have now..........

[Robin_D]

With my experience with B & H or whoever at Silverstone everybody works as a team.

We also have designated hookers on certain corners although with the breakdown we help if they need us. They are well and truly Pro!

We did a trackside recovery during the safety car period a few weeks ago and all was silky smooth and top job. Guys you can trust.

[MGDavid]

All the stories so far pale into insignificance when compared to the 'beyond the call of duty' of Red Rocket at Snetterton yesterday. To explain, the #1 driver came in after 2 practice laps with the o/s pad retainer hanging off, having lost both sliding pin and retaining bolt. After drawing a blank with all the other teams likely to have similar Rover sliding calipers, we approached Recovery - who took us 3 miles offsite to their premises, unlocked both yard and shed, found a caliper on a late Metro and provided spares. They wouldn't even accept any cash ! Apparently the guvnor is an ex-TT bike racer called Alex George, thanks to him we got to race :-)

[Hepatic]

i think what RIXGE is detailing is a very rare occurance indeed. Anyone knowing the regular Oulton recovery crews know they do a fanatsic job, even if they occasionally get stuck on wet grass and need recovering themselves...! Generally i'll leave it up to them if it's a post race clean up, if they want help they ask for it. Normally only a steadying hand is ever needed if its being lifted on to the back, they'll do the rest as thats what they are trained to do.

I know at Donington that some posts (Old Hairpin for one) have a trained marshal that will help with snatches, but thats due to the differences at the circuit. You don't have them kind of gravel traps at Oulton or Anglesey, so the recovery methods differ. IIRC the crews for BTCC at Oulton were not our regular people, or at least some of them weren't. Maybe the fact it was a BTCC meeting meant they acted differently, but it shouldn't have been the case if it was...

[Fat Controller]

Originally Posted by Robin_D

... We also have designated hookers on certain corners although with the breakdown we help if they need us. They are well and truly Pro! ....

It sounds like you have an interesting mix of officials at your circuit - do "hookers" get a mention in the Blue Book?

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by Fat Controller

It sounds like you have an interesting mix of officials at your circuit - do "hookers" get a mention in the Blue Book?

Only on Street Circuits!!

[Jaxs]

Ok, what, if any, training should be given to avoid the situation of a car being damaged by ignorance

Should it be included at ? what level. Course, Incident etc..

What recourse has the driver/owner have against the cause of the damage? if proved to be a result of ignorance.

Should the Marshal/s stop any recovery crews from creating further damage?

[SteveR]

When you ask "Who connects the tow rope", I think you need to differentiate between snatching and recovery.

At Donington, the snatch crew member is usually based with the tractor and will do the hooking up, as the tractor, crew and strops will usually arrive together. The problem is less with saloons, where there is usually only 1 place at each end of the car to connect to, but with single seaters. The single seater strops are not the most obvious things (to me, anyway) to put on, and have the potential to do massive damage to the car if put on wrongly. Also, from past training days, the general feeling seems to be that the the fewer people around the car being snatched, the safer things are. As we all know, towing eyes, shackles and strops can all fail with unpleasant consequences to any unwary body in range.

Recovery, when is is a straight tow and not a lift, depends on the recovery crew and what they are happy with. Don't forget that the majority of the recovery crews do it as a real-world job and know how to hook up without causing damage either to the car or to their (usually very expensive) kit. Some don't like people hooking up cars, some are quite happy to get the help. I think the answer is to ask if they want the help and not just dive in.

Lifting a car, to me, is an entirely different issue. Frankly, I'd leave this to the professionals. The potential for things to go horribly wrong when you get a car 6 feet up in the air is not something I want to contemplate too closely! Again, be guided by the recovery crews. Some will not be happy with other (non-recovery) people placing lifting strops. If you do place a lifting strop, make sure the recoovery person checks it - nothing personal, but usually it is their kit and they know what it can do and what stresses it can stand. How many of the rest of us can honestly say that?

[scorch]

Some interesting points have been raised, and here's my 2p worth.

Recovery and snatching is a speclist skill like flagging, startline, pits/paddock, and the sooner the MSA realises that the better. what responce do you think you will get if you went up to a flag marshall and took the flag out of his/her hand saying that you knew better because it was just waving a flag. or started taking over in the pitlane because you thought you knew better. It is the same thing sticking your nose in and just getting in the way.

Some form of snatch training IS included in marshall training sessions where they are likely to encounter snatches ie at silverstone some basic instruction is regulary given to those who may encounter it. All personell who operate the fire tender/snatch trucks have a training day each year to practice new techniques and to brush up on old ones.

The driver has NO recourse for any damage done to his car in the same way as if you were to damage a car when pushing it.

And as for the comment about stopping recovery crews from creating any damage, I think that comment is way out of order, some marshalls need to spend more time on doing their job and not everybody elses.

and you are quite correct Steve R there is a correct way to snatch a single seater where you will do no damage, it is covered in great detail on training days.

[Jaxs]

I love the extremes. the example of taking the flag out of his hand, but if they are not wearing a scanner and you have information would it be wrong to tell him or her?

some form of training

That was part of the question, but is it sufficient?

some marshalls need to spend more time on doing their job and not everybody elses.

Even if said Marshal has extensive experience in the particular area? Defined area of responsibility?

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by Jaxs

I love the extremes. the example of taking the flag out of his hand, but if they are not wearing a scanner and you have information would it be wrong to tell him or her?

no, because we don't have eyes in the back of our head. especially at places like the hairpin at anglesey, we actively encouraged the incident people to shout out if they saw summat.