Gran Turismo Racing Series development thread

[Mystery]

I thought I'd start a new thread thinking through a few ideas that Chatters and any current and potential participants might want to chat through.

First of all, for anyone new to this the current season thread can be found here and the rules can be found here at post #120.

This season has been my first stab at anything quite like this and it's been tremendously enjoyable and I'd certainly be up for another go, but there are a couple of suggestions I'd like to throw in.

My personal preference would be LMP / WSC / Group C class cars. I've enjoyed the JGTCs but everywhere apart from Le Mans II the Motul Pitwork Z has been dominant. My initial impression is that if we had LMPs would be that you would have a far greater range of cars contending for top honours - eg Toyota 88C-V, Pesca C60, BMW V12 LMR, Mazda 787B - all pretty even yet quite varied.

I would agree with the suggestion made elsewhere allowing freedom over tyre choices, although for 20 minute races I think medium tyres are probably right anyway.

I like the 20 minute race format, but I also quite enjoyed the enduros even though they did not go down too well. I think it might have been different actually had the enduro took place further away from Christmas.

Points systems & Time stoppers championships are both fine. I'd also be interested if people posted their fastest lap time - not to make another championship out of it - I'm just quite curious.

Ideally, I would prefer that the calendar is announced and fixed up front and there were a couple of circuits I would have loved to have been on there. Well....one actually. Would have loved to have raced around the Monte Carlo (Cote d'Azur) track. Also, Fuji and Suzuka would be great too.

Thank you to Chatters for all the hard work put in making this a fun series so far. Hope you can carry on doing so and that you'll be rejoining us on the tracks soon. Great job mate!

Anyone else have any ideas??

[safc_fan89]

When I was testing the DTM-style cars a while back, I found that they all had similar speed over a lap of a random track. Perhaps that could be a possibility?

Tracks I would like to see...Suzuka, Cote d'Azur, Tokyo R246, Trial Mountain, Autumn Ring (ok, thats just because I want to know if anyone can actually lap it properly), Motorland (why not). Other than that, everything else is ok.

[BertMk2]

Must admit I'd prefer touring cars (DTM ) over the prototypes in the next championship - prefer them in the real world too. Running in arcade mode works quite well as it gets rid of all the modifications, allowing free tyre choice would be good though (although use the same wear rate as now).

Keep enduros to a minimum - I normally only get one or two runs in on the 20 minuters so the enduros are a bit of a pain.

Favourite tracks - Tsukaba, Grand Valley, Apricot Hill, Suzuka East. Not a fan of street circuits, if we must have them then Cote d'Azur would be best. Knowing the calendar up front would be a big benefit for those with plenty of time on their hands - and they don't need any more help

Points and everything works well so I don't see the need for any major changes in that department.

[Rockmunky]

I've now found my GT4 disc, so i might fire up the PS2 for the next series.

I don't really mind what we race, i'm slow in everything

If the enduros could be left for the summer months, when i have lots of free time, that would be ace

Tracks... Le mans, Nordschleife, Suzuka, rather not go to Tokyo..

Apart form that, i don't really mind!

[trevisio]

A long as there are no silly penalty rules like extra weight or anything like that for drivers who are quick/finish up the front, I will be happy to continue racing whatever the car or track!

If we looked at changing things around a bit, penalties for certain cars would be my suggeston, for example as mentioned above, the Motul Z is superior to all other JGTC car options unless there is a massive long straight like Le Mans. Maybe a penalty like no weight reduction allowed if using the superior cars could be considered. If we used Group C cars maybe ban/penalise the Toyota Minolta as it is quicker than the others in that class...

One thing to consider is that the more complex the rules are the less attractive the series will be to casual competitors who are just browsing TT and stumble across the GT4 weekly challenge.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by trevisio

One thing to consider is that the more complex the rules are the less attractive the series will be to casual competitors who are just browsing TT and stumble across the GT4 weekly challenge.

Very good point - keep it simple so people can "pick up and play".

[Mystery]

Agreed about keeping it simple - there's not a heck of a lot wrong with how things are run now and that's great to see.

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Knowing the calendar up front would be a big benefit for those with plenty of time on their hands - and they don't need any more help

Good point Bert - hadn't really seen it that way and I can quite appreciate that

[Chatters]

First off, Mystery, the idea of this thread was a good idea. I was going to wait until Season 1 was over before I opened this for discussion, but I have no problem with it being opened now, seeing as we are near the end of the current season. Now, if you'd like, I'll go through all your suggestions individually and tell you what I think of them, whether they may be implemented etc. etc.

Originally Posted by Mystery

My personal preference would be LMP / WSC / Group C class cars. I've enjoyed the JGTCs but everywhere apart from Le Mans II the Motul Pitwork Z has been dominant. My initial impression is that if we had LMPs would be that you would have a far greater range of cars contending for top honours - eg Toyota 88C-V, Pesca C60, BMW V12 LMR, Mazda 787B - all pretty even yet quite varied.

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

When I was testing the DTM-style cars a while back, I found that they all had similar speed over a lap of a random track. Perhaps that could be a possibility

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Must admit I'd prefer touring cars (DTM ) over the prototypes in the next championship -

Let me say I am not going to have JGTC cars next season. I haven't decided yet what cars will be allowed, but right now I am tossing up between three or four possible options. But to me, JGTC cars are not an option for Season 2.

Originally Posted by Mystery

I would agree with the suggestion made elsewhere allowing freedom over tyre choices, although for 20 minute races I think medium tyres are probably right anyway.

Originally Posted by BertMk2

allowing free tyre choice would be good though (although use the same wear rate as now).

Tyres are a very interesting topic. While I do agree changing the tyre rules would liven things up a bit, I am always aiming to have at least one pitstop in every race to add an extra element to the race. One idea I have been thinking is changing what tyres you can use for which races, but I don't know if it is practicle enough to work.

Originally Posted by Mystery

I like the 20 minute race format, but I also quite enjoyed the enduros even though they did not go down too well. I think it might have been different actually had the enduro took place further away from Christmas.

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Keep enduros to a minimum - I normally only get one or two runs in on the 20 minuters so the enduros are a bit of a pain.

Originally Posted by Rockmunky

If the enduros could be left for the summer months, when i have lots of free time, that would be ace

I think the problem is that everyone likes the longer races (perhaps not at Seoul Central- ), but no-one has the time to do them. I've been thinking about it, and welcome all feedback you have on the subject. Perhaps a warm-up, play-for-fun endurance series before we open the proceedings of Season 2, around May/June/July?

Originally Posted by Mystery

Points systems & Time stoppers championships are both fine. I'd also be interested if people posted their fastest lap time - not to make another championship out of it - I'm just quite curious.

If everyone can remember them and PM them to me I will be happy to post them .

Originally Posted by Mystery

Ideally, I would prefer that the calendar is announced and fixed up front and there were a couple of circuits I would have loved to have been on there. Well....one actually. Would have loved to have raced around the Monte Carlo (Cote d'Azur) track. Also, Fuji and Suzuka would be great too.

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

Tracks I would like to see...Suzuka, Cote d'Azur, Tokyo R246, Trial Mountain, Autumn Ring (ok, thats just because I want to know if anyone can actually lap it properly), Motorland (why not). Other than that, everything else is ok.

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Favourite tracks - Tsukaba, Grand Valley, Apricot Hill, Suzuka East. Not a fan of street circuits, if we must have them then Cote d'Azur would be best. Knowing the calendar up front would be a big benefit for those with plenty of time on their hands - and they don't need any more help

Originally Posted by Rockmunky

Tracks... Le mans, Nordschleife, Suzuka, rather not go to Tokyo..

Season 1 was pretty much a 'tipping the big toes in the water' excercise. Try out a variety of circuits (long, really long, medium, short, street circuits etc.) and see what everyone liked. Season 2 will be based around what are people's favourites so as to keep everyone interested, because if they are on a track they like they are bound to want to do well at it and be competitive.

As far as revealing the calender up front goes- and I'll be honest here- the main reason I didn't want to reveal it all at once was because it gave people a chance to find THE best Quick Tune settings, THE perfect difficulty to set the opponents at so they don't annoy you, and THE best times to pit.

Now, after hearing what Bert and many others have had to say I will say right now I am reviewing it and will take your requests into consideration.

Originally Posted by Mystery

Thank you to Chatters for all the hard work put in making this a fun series so far. Hope you can carry on doing so and that you'll be rejoining us on the tracks soon. Great job mate!

Absolutely my pleasure mate. If it wasn't for guys like you, trevisio, Bert, safc_fan and mac, I wouldn't be doing it. Thank you very much, all of you, for being great, honest competitors and having a lot of fun!

[nickyf1]

Im entering next year, looks like youve all done a better job than me at running this after I left. Ill try to do it next season. The JGTC cars were good as they provided a level playing feild, mabey we could look at the s2000 tourers like the BMW 330i, the Honda Integra Tourer and the Mazda 6.

[Mystery]

Personally, I'm not a fan of the DTM's but that's more my personal style then a particular gameplay argument. Although, if we do have DTMs then I have a hunch I already know which car will be fastest.

That said, you could pick virtually any category couldn't you and find that one car was just a little bit better than the rest. With the JGTCs the Motul Z stood out for me in a little test I undertook long before this series was dreamt up so when I saw the car list I was in no doubt what I'd be driving.

I love the Group C cars but DTMs would be no worse in terms of gameplay. GT style cars could be fun also - Nissan GT-R Concept vs AMG Mercedes CLK vs Oreca Viper GTS-R with maybe even a Zonda lurking nearby

Maybe supercars like - Zonda C12, Viper SRT10, Cadillac Cien, Honda NSX-R, Jag XJ220, Saleen S7, Merc SLR McLaren - all within a couple of seconds of each other over the course of a 2 minute lap. Could be fun

Don't know a lot about the S2000 tourers since I haven't tested them a great deal. I'm pretty easy going about car choice to be honest but it's probably better to have the car be one that's not too too hard to acquire (which might rule out some of my suggestions)

[safc_fan89]

One thing about the DTM cars is that they seem to handle too well, or rather, they are easy to control. On soft tyres at least. After the JGTC cars, which are also quite easy to drive, perhaps it would be an idea to go for something that requires more effort to control for a full race distance? Just an idea. I'd still take part whatever the car choice was.

[nickyf1]

you could ban traction control but im not sure it would work well.

[Rockmunky]

Nope, doesn't look like i'll be competing....
PS2 is doing that disc read error thing again with most of my games... =/

[safc_fan89]

An idea I've had is using road-legal cars such as BMWs, Jags etc. They are harder to control and race fast.

[Chatters]

Well guys, now that Series 1 is over, I think we need to look at this thread more. I can see the sorts of things you guys want, and of course I'll try my best to implement them. However I want the gameplay to be as fair as possible. In Series 2 I want more people taking victories (in Series 1 safc_fan89 and trevisio accounted for 12 of the 15 wins).

What are your thoughts?

[nickyf1]

I think we should all use Road Going cars from 350-450 BHP, no quick tune (as it is really just making the car faster) and mabey some oval races at Motegi or Begginers Circuit. Or mabey we could all do it in GT4 mode with a certain championship?

[BertMk2]

Keeping it in Arcade mode makes things simpler - also restricting cars to a given subset (DTM, JGTC, Group C etc.) also keeps things simpler (and I need all the help I can get in that department ). Quick tune I don't have a problem with - it allows setups to be altered a bit - just ramping everything up to the max doesn't work. I'd free up tyre choice though (chances are there would be a clear way to go on tyres and everyone would use the same but it does allow that extra flexibility).

[Mystery]

I'm with Bert here. Arcade certainly works best and makes it far easier to police whether people are using the same settings (because it's not possible to modify anything apart from via quick tune).

Freedom over tyre choice would be interesting and another variable.

This would fit well with slightly varying the length of races - you could have them ranging from 10-15 minute sprints up to 20-25 minutes without necessarily making the effort required to complete them all that much greater.

I'm pretty easy going about the car choice - I've made my preferences known previously (to which I'd add Rally cars - excluding the Escudo Pikes Peak they are all pretty similar) but I'll race anything with 4 wheels and an engine.

As for circuits I just think we should have a variety. Yeah - I don't like the street circuits much either but let's make it a varied championship as much as we can.

Looking forward to seeing Chatters' rules and regs in the future and to another fun season of competition.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Mystery

Freedom over tyre choice would be interesting and another variable.

This would fit well with slightly varying the length of races - you could have them ranging from 10-15 minute sprints up to 20-25 minutes without necessarily making the effort required to complete them all that much greater.

That's a good idea - varied lengths but keep them all under 30 minutes. Enduros hurt my fingers

Rally cars is a good call too the WRC's are all very close on power (because of the limits on the class) so they'd be a good choice. As you say the Pikes Peak efforts are a bit too loony, not sure the Group B cars should be allowed either (unless we just run it as a group B series).

[Mystery]

Anorak's Corner
============
I don't think there's a lot of difference between any of the rally cars Group B included.

I tested the following around a circuit which shall remain nameless
Peugeot 205 Turbo Evo 2
Ford RS200
Lancia Delta S4
Toyota RSC Rally
Peugeot 206
Mitsi Starion
Renault 5 Maxi
Subaru Impreza
Peugeot 205 Turbo
Mitsi Lancer Evo SR

and all but 3 of them got times between 48.0 and 49.7. Fastest car was a modern car but the 2nd fastest at 48.2 was a group B. Very close and mixed group.

Similar sad analysis available for various other categories upon request

[safc_fan89]

I wouldn't be that bothered if we all used the same car. Would anyone else?

[Purist]

I have a few general notes. First, sf89, a "spec" series can level things some, but it may hurt some who aren't allowed to pick a comparable vehicle that better suits their driving style. Second, and not directed at anyone in particular, I find lower performance cars easier to handle; the corner approach speeds are slower and you have noticeably more response time wherever you are on course. I'd think some sort of high-end tourers (like DTM), or GT-type cars, would be a good balance of performance and driving challenge.

[Chatters]

Just remember Mystery, this is the Gran Turismo Racing League, not Gran Turismo Rallying League.

Tyres, I can see, are going to be a hot topic. I'm still debating what the rules will be with tyres, because at the moment I can't decide whether I want a single tyre allowed, which means most races will have one pitstop, or if I allow all tyre choices to be used, which might get rid of the pitstop (but at the same time if people choose Super Hard tyres they will be slower per lap but will save time for not taking a pitstop.). I want to keep the series as simple as possible, so anyone can pretty much pick up the game and play, but I do want some variety.

Hope that made sense .

[safc_fan89]

Tyres are the best way to give variety. For example, using different variations of tyres. If I could have, I would have tried soft fronts and medium rears throughout the last championship. I think thats a good thing, if you think it may put people off because of a lack of time, make each round 2 weeks long.

And I agree that the hardest cars to get a fast time with are the faster cars, but would any of us really want to race any desperately-slow cars?

[rugg_uk]

Originally Posted by Rockmunky

Nope, doesn't look like i'll be competing....
PS2 is doing that disc read error thing again with most of my games... =/

Mine too...... It's time for a strip and clean again. I don't suppose it helps living in a smoke and pet filled house, but mine needs doing every couple of years and GT4 seems to be one of the worst for loading. It's an easy job that takes about 1 1/2 hours. I've got some printed off instructions I refer to, but here's a few web links.

http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Ha...Guides/ps2diy/
http://www.gamingworldx.com/features...airGuide.shtml
or the one I use -
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/ps2.ars

It really is worth the effort although a standard dvd/cd lens cleaning disc may help.

Best of luck and hope to see you in the next season.
--
René