Bourdais on Standing Starts

[indycool]

http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/ore...920.xml&coll=7

[Muzza]

Originally Posted by indycool

http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/ore...920.xml&coll=7

Standing starts are an important differentiating aspect: they set Champ Car apart from other series - not the least that one, which is quite valuable from a marketing perspective. Also, I believe - as I have stated many times in this forum - that from a sportive (say, fairness) and driving skill perspective standing starts are far superior to any alternative.

If properly managed - and with a bit of luck -, it is possible to improve the cars and to have standing start at the next round in Portland. This is issue has dragged along just because everybody at Champ Car - teams, Panoz, promoters and Champ Car istelf - have much more pressing problems on their hands at the moment.

Cheers,


Muzza

[gomick]

..."Bourdais said when drivers released the clutch on the Cosworth-powered DP01 cars during dry runs of the standing start procedure, it was hit and miss.
"I think 50 percent of the field was stalling," he said. "It's a big mistake to introduce it here without having an open test where we can check everybody out and make sure that it's running flawlessly"...

so what happens when drivers make pit stops, do 50% of them stall - i must be missing something... still, we cant argue with sebastien

[Peter Ford]

well if he wants to be in f1 in the next few months,he better be ready for standing starts as he will be doing exactly that when he enters f1.

[marcel82]

Originally Posted by gomick

..."Bourdais said when drivers released the clutch on the Cosworth-powered DP01 cars during dry runs of the standing start procedure, it was hit and miss.
"I think 50 percent of the field was stalling," he said. "It's a big mistake to introduce it here without having an open test where we can check everybody out and make sure that it's running flawlessly"...

so what happens when drivers make pit stops, do 50% of them stall - i must be missing something... still, we cant argue with sebastien

I might be mistaken, but aren't they pushed by their crews when they leave their pitstalls? I don't see that happening at the starts


I think his concerns are more about the mechanical part of it, something F1 cars have less problems with. he shouldn't be doubting his skills, from the video's I have seen, his starts were better then some other drivers's

[Purist]

No, the crews do not normally push the cars out as such. They used to when Indy Cars only had two-speed transmissions, so first gear was too tall to pull them from a standing start.

[JohnSSC]

In re: Standing starts.

Sure, these guys don't know how to use a clutch and won't be able to drive in F1 - I mean, come on! Think a bit, shall we? Heck, I bet most of them drive without using the clutch at least on upshifts (or did before the paddle shifters). Launching from the pits and standing starts are apples and oranges in some respects.

The clutches on these cars are adjustable. Not quite in the way that a clutch in a drag racer is, but similar. You adjust the clutch to give the amount of bite you need to launch the car. Obviously, what you need to launch out of the pits (where the speed is limited by engine management - plus you already have the wheels spinning before the car hits the ground) is much different than a standing start where you want to "hook-up" as quickly as possible minimizing wheelspin. The more "bite" or "grab" the more wear you have on the clutch. Even F1 cars have a limited number of starts that can be done before the clutch is toasted.

So here is my question (to Seb's point): Agreeing that they have bigger fish to fry technically, is it better to put this off for a season? It is one thing to practice standing starts and a whole other thing to see if the clutches will last the race distance at Portland or one of the busier tracks for shifting. Without thorough testing, I am thinking we could all be delighted with the charm of the standing start and then watch everyone and their brother retire with clutch faliures.

Bet you all didn't think I had the techie side in me, did you??

[Snrub]

So what if any changes have been made to improve the chances of successfu standing starts?

[JohnSSC]

For now, they (the mechanics) are probably just tweaking them at the track. I think a good bit of testing will be needed to determine what types of settings/clutch lining material, etc need to be used.

[djb]

is it just me or I am too simple here--why the fuss, you just overengineer the clutches that everyone uses, if they cant do standing starts like everyone else, that's their problem....

now if for some reason the size of the clutch is limiting the size and/or strength of the materials that's one thing, but I can't imagine that this would really be a factor, I mean these are race cars with "X" amount of hp, they must have strong enough basic clutch systems wouldn't they.

I'm surprised though that Bourdais would mention concerns, the guy is a real racer with lots of standing start experience--this and only this makes me wonder what's up technically with the cars, and you would think he would be the last to gripe about it--unless the things really have crappy clutches--and again, you wouldn't think that it would be that big a hurdle to get over--armchair mechanic speaking I admit....

[JohnSSC]

It is not as "simple" as over engineering. You have space, heat and weight factors to consider. This is not like dropping a heavy-duty clutch into a car for street applications.

One consideration for example is deterioration due to heat. For example, just standing at the start line waiting for the green causes a tremendous heat buildup when you have engines generating upwards of of 750 - 800 bhp. If a start gets waved off one or more times, you can have serious degradation problems from the heat causing the material to break down- not unlike brake materials that get overcooked.

I am not surprised Bourdais IS the one raising concerns because he does have so much experience in regard to standing starts and overall clutch wear issues.

It is not a question of having a crappy clutch but of having 800 bhp at the wheels turning slicks designed to provide maximum adhesion in a car with enough downforce to drive on a ceiling at speed. It is simple physics, actually and has nothing at all to do with a lack of driver skill. You don't want to yank the driveline right out of the darn things at the start, nor destroy the clutch before the first corner.

There should have been a lot more testing. Period. It is pretty lame-brained to get everyone all jazzed-up for this before you even know if the car can do it.

[djb]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

There should have been a lot more testing. Period. It is pretty lame-brained to get everyone all jazzed-up for this before you even know if the car can do it.

like I said John, armchair mechanic, engineer I am, so I think your statement above is probably the key thing here. And not to defend things, perhaps the problem was that the idea of standing starts came after they had given parameters for the car/drivetrain from the beginiing.

cheers

[JohnSSC]

I think you are spot on, there, djb.

If thorough testing had been done this issued could have been surfaced long ago and diagnosed/corrected. They (CC) tested inappropriately this winter, imho. You had X number of drivers basically there for tryouts. The last thing they wan to do is boring straight-line tests or routine testing. They want to do race and quali sims in order to show they have the goods.

The only generic testing that occurred to my knowledge were Moreno's test sessions. There just were not enough miles put on the car and at that early stage you want to make sure the basic car works: "Does it start, steer, turn, etc?" They needed more testing such as that to determine if standing starts are possible or if the fueling systems worked.

[roachy101]

bourdais should be used to doing standing starts (F3000 had them) and he probably practised them during his F1 tests as well but i suppose a champ car has different set-ups to an F1 car

[Adam43]

The issue isn't with Bourdais, he is just the person who has voiced the concerns. marcel82 above says he is fairing better than most.

[djb]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

They needed more testing such as that to determine if standing starts are possible or if the fueling systems worked.

your theory is certainly supported by the refueling problems early on. Lets face it, its probably down to not having unlimited funds for all this--as it would seem with the drivers being extra careful with dinged cars on course so as not to further damage them-as was clearly stated for reason of not having spares and/or availability of tubs. I figure that its the growing pains part of having new chassis's and the financial reality side of things. As a supporter of the series, I figure they just need some time to get the store in order.

[indycool]

Agree, djb. Which driver is going to forget his tires are colder? They've already made adjustments because every tub was cracked around the clutch cable inlet (and on the opposite side, too, as a matter of fact). Those "fixes" should last OK for the tubs, but did those fixes alter how the clutch cable performs. Not trying to start a discussion about tubs, because it's my understanding that they've all routed them through fab shops in Indy for repair and they've been fixed, but they have enough things wrong with these cars not to be adding further concerns with standing starts right now.

[norman-normal]

The biggest problem with standing starts for someone who hasn't tried it in racing: you can't watch the lights/flagman and your tach at the same time and you can't hear your own engine. I used to slip my clutch very slightly to avoid stalling.