Blue Flags

[Walshy]

Following some of the things that have been said on the topic recently and some of the moans about Blue Flagging, it seems to be that some of our brethren are a bit sketchy on the true meaning of the Blue Flag.

There seems to be a general misconception that if a Blue Flag is waved at a slower car, then it has to jump out of the way of the leaders coming through. This is just not true. It may be the F1 way, but that is specific to F1.
Club racing and as far as I was aware, all other forms of racing use the Blue Flag merely as a form of warning. As a leader, it is your responsibility to negotiate your way past slower cars. This in itself is an art. But it is not the responsibility of the slower car to just jump out of the way.

Stationery Blue Flag = Car is close behind you.

Waved Blue Flag = Car is trying to pass you.

Whether it be a leader trying to pass a back marker, or two cars battling for 23rd and 24th place, the Blue Flag has the same meaning. It is purely a visual warning and nothing more. It is not an Instruction as it is in F1.

Another aside to this is how many times does the Flag actually need to be waved. If say 2 cars are battling for 23rd and 24th place and they have had Blue Flags for a complete lap at each marshal's post, do they need to be shown them again the following lap. I would say "no" as the 2 drivers at this point should be more than aware of the close proximaty of the other.

Now, when a driver has not seen the Blue Flag, or is just blatantly ignoring it, is another arguement. That said, how do you prove it?????

I know it is frustrating as a leader when you feel you are being impeded by a slower car as you lap them and it's very easy to point the finger at the marshal's, but as I have already said and it is a point made by many racing schools, it's your responsibility to safely negotiate a way past the slower car, not his to get out of the way.

Bring on the debate?????????

[JimW]

Complete wording:

Originally Posted by Blue Book Regulation J.16

(b) Blue flag – Stationary: Another competitor is
following close behind.
(c) Blue flag – Waved: Another competitor is trying to
overtake.

So, on the face of the Regs, Walshy is quite right.

Regards

Jim

[Al Weyman]

I hear what you say but if you are a back marker I think it is curtious to let the leaders through even if that mean a nano second of a lift off or a slightly different line. Apart from being polite to do so it may well save your car from getting involved in an unneccessary altercation and damage you will have to repair.

Mind you at last years Classic Thunder round at Brands I did just that and a guy challenging me for a class win nipped by as well resulting in me just being able to take it back on the last lap drag out of clearways by 100th of a second! Good for the crowd though. ;-)

[Walshy]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I hear what you say but if you are a back marker I think it is curtious to let the leaders through even if that mean a nano second of a lift off or a slightly different line. Apart from being polite to do so it may well save your car from getting involved in an unneccessary altercation and damage you will have to repair.

Mind you at last years Classic Thunder round at Brands I did just that and a guy challenging me for a class win nipped by as well resulting in me just being able to take it back on the last lap drag out of clearways by 100th of a second! Good for the crowd though. ;-)

I totally agree with you. It would be good manners for a driver to move out of the way, but that's not the issue here. The issue is the use of the Blue Flag and the Blue Flag doesn't mean he has to move out of the way. As I said, it's not an Instruction, just a warning.

[terence]

Ignore the Blue at your peril!You could land a Black and a nice cosy chat with the Clerck of the course[whilst everyone else carries on with thier racing!]

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Walshy

Whether it be a leader trying to pass a back marker, or two cars battling for 23rd and 24th place, the Blue Flag has the same meaning. It is purely a visual warning and nothing more. It is not an Instruction as it is in F1.

Another aside to this is how many times does the Flag actually need to be waved. If say 2 cars are battling for 23rd and 24th place and they have had Blue Flags for a complete lap at each marshal's post, do they need to be shown them again the following lap. I would say "no" as the 2 drivers at this point should be more than aware of the close proximaty of the other.

Apologies if I've misinterpreted what you're saying, but if two cars are battling for position & are not being lapped they will not be blue flagged!

[PeterM]

I would agree with Walshy on the blue flag "rule" but not on the point about two cars battling for position during a race.

Once the race has commenced a driver will normally know who his nearest competitor is and there is no point in showing each positional battle a blue flag as it would be pointless. During a race I will only normally display a blue to advise drivers that a faster car is coming up behind them and they should be prepared to be overtaken. As said above it is not an instruction for the slower driver to move out of the way, just an advice flag.

For the AMOC meeting at Silverstone on Saturday I was flagging at Priory, 3/4 of the way down the club straight. The cars are at full tilt here, but I get an excellent view and can see who the faster cars are. With the wide variation in speeds in some races and the fact that the cars are just about to start to brake for Brooklands corner, blue flags were restricted to cars being lapped. And to be fair, the lapped drivers were very good and held their line enabling the faster drivers to pass safely, which is the way it should be.

[JimW]

One of the besetting sins of (some) flag marshals is over use of the flags.

I agree with what Walshy says about two cars which are battling for places over several laps. Once you are satisfied that they have been shown a blue (or clearly know that the other car is there) then continuing to show them a blue is a waste of time and conveys no meaningful information. (I suppose it keeps the flag marshal warm. )

Frankly the same applies to a slow or suffering back marker who is clearly aware that they are being overtaken by a string of cars. I have even seen a blue being given to a driver who was crawling round with two wheels practically on the grass and with one hand in the air. Waste of time.

Regards

Jim

[skmanuk]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Ignore the Blue at your peril!You could land a Black and a nice cosy chat with the Clerck of the course[whilst everyone else carries on with thier racing!]

Why?

The Blue Flag is not an instruction to take any overt action.

It is the responsibility of the faster car to find a way past the slower car, if necessary by going off line.

On many occasions during a pre race briefing by the CoC, we have been told that the slower car should "maintain" the racing line and not try to be helpful as this is a significant cause of accidents.

[terence]

Yes thats absolutly correct but I actually hav seen someone pulled in for not responding to waved blues.I understand what you are saying but have a look in the blue book and check.

[johnw]

It says something like
"If you are being caught by a car which is consistently or temporarily faster then you should give way".
A little read piece of the BB I think!

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by skmanuk

Why?

The Blue Flag is not an instruction to take any overt action.

It is the responsibility of the faster car to find a way past the slower car, if necessary by going off line.

On many occasions during a pre race briefing by the CoC, we have been told that the slower car should "maintain" the racing line and not try to be helpful as this is a significant cause of accidents.

Are not Blue flags "advisery" flags??

and I agree, the slower car should "maintain their" racing line. It is the responsibilty of the faster car to overtake safely.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Blue Book Section J

15.4. During a race or practice, a car alone on the track may use the full width of the track. However, as soon as it is caught up by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the driver shall give the other vehicle the right of way. [16.1]

15.4.1. Curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits of the track. Overtaking, may be done either on the right or on the left.

15.4.2. Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as premature direction changes on the straight, crowding of cars towards the inside or the outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited and will be subject to penalties ranging from a fine to exclusion from the race. The repetition of such driving, even involuntary, may result in exclusion.

15.5. Any driver appearing not to be making adequate use of his car’s rear view mirror, or driving in a manner which even if unintentionally appears consistently to hinder or discourage another driver seeking to pass may be halted by display of the Black flag or otherwise penalised.

I think this is probably the bits which apply most obviously. Blue flag not specifically mentioned but I see no difficulty in the presence of a properly displayed blue being regarded as removing any "I did not see him in my mirror" type excuses.

Regards

Jim

[Walshy]

I agree on the point that if someone is showing blatant disregard for a quicker car, then yes, haul them in for a rollocking. This blatant disregard could be obvious line changes or irratic braking or just plain overdriving to stay in front.

But again, the responsibilty to pass lies wholly with the faster car. The act of passing backmarkers is an art in itself and a skill. Another string to a drivers bow if used correctly. Part of racing.

On the issue of continuous flagging, if a marshal wishes to continually wave a blue flag at a dueling pair of cars, then there can be no harm in it, but speaking from a drivers perspective, it's not neccessary.

It just winds me up that drivers who struggle to pass slower cars immediately lay the blame at the marshals or anyone else but them. If your lapping 5 seconds a lap quicker than the car your trying to pass, getting past shouldn't be a major issue. Indeed, in something like a Formula Ford, I would say most of the 5 seconds is made up by more efficient braking, so getting under a slower car into a corner should be a piece of cake. The problem more lies with "has he seen me or hasn't he".

No marshals flag can answer that one for you. Regardless of the amount of flagging..........

[diz]

Here's my two pennyworth, for what it's worth

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I hear what you say but if you are a back marker I think it is curtious to let the leaders through even if that mean a nano second of a lift off or a slightly different line. Apart from being polite to do so it may well save your car from getting involved in an unneccessary altercation and damage you will have to repair.

Not so Al. Your lift, or change of direction can cause an accident. The faster car will size up the situation, your track position, closing speed, where you will be when he goes past etc. Your trying to be helpful throws that out of the window and your "helpful action" can create an accident. I'm sure this will have happened to you many times over the years when your V8 brute is in full 'gobbling up the smaller cars mode'. I'm sure you can count your heart in the mouth moments on a centipede's toes.

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Apologies if I've misinterpreted what you're saying, but if two cars are battling for position & are not being lapped they will not be blue flagged!

Not so Dave. If the 24th has being driving quicker to catch the 23rd, a blue should be shown initially to advise him that he is now being followed closely where previously he wasn't.

Originally Posted by terence bowyer

Yes thats absolutly correct but I actually hav seen someone pulled in for not responding to waved blues.

Probably for being obstructive, blocking, weaving etc. Ignoring the advisory blues being only part of the reason for "the summons"


There have been many threads on blue flags over the years and many marshals interpretations of what they perceive to be- or have been told - is correct. Only some of the time are they given the correct information
1. Some only use it for lapping by the race leader WRONG
2. Some for lapping by any car CORRECT
3. Some point blank refuse to show it for an early front runner, having spun and making their way back up the field. They say things like "it was his fault for spinning, so why should we make it easier for him to get back towards the front" WRONG
4. Some do show it as in point 3 above. CORRECT
5. At any time in any race, or qualifying, faster cars will close in quickly on slower cars. In all instances a blue should be displayed CORRECT
6. I could go on, but to sum up.

I always advise drivers on ARDS Courses, or new to my championship [as AU N EGL states] "the slower car should "maintain their" racing line. It is the responsibilty of the faster car to overtake safely. Trying to be helpful can become a dangerous hindrance".

I think there should be some dialogue between all the Chief Flag Marshals and CoCs' to lay down exactly what a blue flag means and when it should be displayed. This could then be issued as a handout and be included in the annual Training Day course notes.

Finally I did one meeting many years ago where the observer insisted a blue flag was waved on the first lap of every race to every car.

[Woolley]

As one who waves a blue flag, In my opinion it is a safetey message to the car shortly to be passed, that 'a faster car is likely to come shooting through and you need to be aware of it'. The secondary message is to the faster car - 'he ought to know you're aware now, but pass at your own discretion'. If two cars are battling for position, regardless of what position that may be, I will only show a blue for one of two reasons: It is a car making it's way back from an indiscretion who is considerably faster and in my opinion, not warning you about it could cause a dangerous situation (rarely), or I am totally confused and have lost the plot (hopefully equally as rare). What it is not is an instruction. F1 has unfortunately confused its meaning for reasons best known to them, which is why I don't do F1.

[StephenRae]

I think the biggest problem is when two or more of you come to lap a slower car or cars. Often the front car gets through and subsequent ones miss out.
A stationary blue flag (if not shown too soon) serves to warn that they are about to be passed, perhaps the meaning of a waved blue flag in similar circumstances could be changed to mean that more than one car is approaching.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by diz

. . .
1. Some only use it for lapping by the race leader WRONG
. . . .

Up to a point Diz.

"Blue book" races - entirely correct.

"International" races - The FIA rules are different.

Originally Posted by FIA Appendix H

4.1.2.d) Light Blue flag:
This should normally be waved, as an indication to a driver that he is about to be overtaken. It has different meanings during
practice and the race.
At all times :
- A stationary flag should be displayed to a driver leaving the pits if traffic is approaching on the track.
During practice :
- Give way to a faster car which is about to overtake you.
During the race :
- The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be lapped and, when shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity.

Leaving aside the colour, you can see quite radical differences in when the flag is to be displayed and what is its meaning to a driver.

Personally I think this difference between UK and the Rest-of-the-World (who typically adhere to the FIA standard) is not helpful. Many UK drivers have races in Europe and vice versa.

What the regulations say is important but I believe that having them say the same thing could be more important.

The confusion last year at a meeting run at Anglesey for/by Leinster Motor Club was quite noticeable. (I'm not sure if the RIAC rules differ from FIA but they certainly differ from MSA ones.) Mixed marshalling teams and driver expectations led to some swift explanations and joint agreements.

Regards

Jim

[Redracer77]

[QUOTE=diz]
I always advise drivers on ARDS Courses, or new to my championship [as AU N EGL states] "the slower car should "maintain their" racing line. It is the responsibilty of the faster car to overtake safely. Trying to be helpful can become a dangerous hindrance".




This is rubbish Diz and in my mind is dangerous. It's all good and well telling a novice that the faster guys must get past you and stick to the racing line but common since is needed here....

By telling a novice to stick to their line, basically tells a novice to not bother looking in their mirrors...why should they need to as all drivers coming up need to get past with me (the driver) on the racing line.....

I got a situation last year when I was in 2nd at Donington in the F4 race and I was under the wing of the leader Chris Kite going up to coppice. We were fast approaching a back marker in a Formula Ford zetec. Chris Kite got past on the run up to the corner and I was down the inside under braking (by the way there was plenty of Blue Flags). When I was level and I mean level with the back marker they just turned in on me and pushed me on the grass. When quizzed about it after the race the person in question told me that they knew I was there but was always told to take the normal line and that it was up to me to over take before the corner......

If you are battling for 23rd and 24th then fair play battle away but when you are being lapped that is a different story. The lead groups in races are not racing the back markers but the cars in the group so the back markers need to look in mirrors and around the circuit and pull clear to allow the lead battle to proceed without interference.

[MGDavid]

Diz and RR are both right - to a degree. Always remember that it's a non-contact sport. Yes you drive normally even when you've seen a blue and are aware of somebody faster coming up behind; up to the point when I can predict that we are about to occupy the same piece of road, then I give him a car's width plus a foot or two. For instance by delaying my turn-in a tiny fraction to miss the apex if he's already alongside.

[diz]

Originally Posted by Redracer77

This is rubbish Diz and in my mind is dangerous. It's all good and well telling a novice that the faster guys must get past you and stick to the racing line but common since is needed here....

I got a situation last year when I was in 2nd at Donington in the F4 race and I was under the wing of the leader Chris Kite going up to coppice. We were fast approaching a back marker in a Formula Ford zetec. Chris Kite got past on the run up to the corner and I was down the inside under braking (by the way there was plenty of Blue Flags). When I was level and I mean level with the back marker they just turned in on me and pushed me on the grass. When quizzed about it after the race the person in question told me that they knew I was there but was always told to take the normal line and that it was up to me to over take before the corner......

Chris,
I bet that if you asked that Zetec driver now he would own up to not having seen you at all. It is the classic "see the blue, see the faster car but not the hidden second faster car" Hence work on the assumption he hasn't seen you and expect him to take his normal line. The onus is on you to expect this and drive accordingly, thus avoiding going onto the grass - or potentially gravel, barrier or other cars.

[Pensioner]

Bring back the Jim Russell Racing Drivers School.
After listening to the Don Truman Drivers briefing and explanation of the flags nobody should be in doubt as to their meaning.
Go on Don post the briefing here. But then again, they probably wouldn't know where the "bundu" was.

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by diz

Chris,
I bet that if you asked that Zetec driver now he would own up to not having seen you at all. It is the classic "see the blue, see the faster car but not the hidden second faster car" Hence work on the assumption he hasn't seen you and expect him to take his normal line. The onus is on you to expect this and drive accordingly, thus avoiding going onto the grass - or potentially gravel, barrier or other cars.

It was actually a lady!! If they had been using the mirrors correctly then they would have seen what was coming up behind with the glances in the mirrors from the 2 or 3 previous corners...

[JimW]

I'm finding it very interesting to see so much advice and actual experience. Even more interesting is how little agreement much of this bears with the actual Regulations.

You know the Regulations chaps - those things which Clerks expect you to know, Observers will report you for not following (assuming that we are not otherwise occupied doing three other people's jobs or just asleep) and other drivers will rage at you for disobeying (if it suits their case at that time).

Diz - I don't see how you can justify giving advice in an ARDS course which seems, arguably, to be at odds with the Regulations? (Or is a 'forced' interpretation.)

Regards

Jim

[Walshy]

[QUOTE=Redracer77]
I got a situation last year when I was in 2nd at Donington in the F4 race and I was under the wing of the leader Chris Kite going up to coppice. We were fast approaching a back marker in a Formula Ford zetec. Chris Kite got past on the run up to the corner and I was down the inside under braking (by the way there was plenty of Blue Flags). When I was level and I mean level with the back marker they just turned in on me and pushed me on the grass. When quizzed about it after the race the person in question told me that they knew I was there but was always told to take the normal line and that it was up to me to over take before the corner......
QUOTE]


Sorry but this novice sounds like an idiot. Sticking to the line is not a problem, but common sense has to prevail. I mean, if a car is already there, would anyone with half a brain turn in...............

Half the problem, is there are many many drivers who drive with blinkers on. They have no peripheral vision at all. But that's another debate.