Senna Pole Record

[pole2pole]

This time last year I thought Michael would have beat Senna's record of 65 poles during the 2005 season. The big question is will Senna's record ever be broken?

[Raven]

Well, records are there to be broken. Hopefully not by MS, but he probably will...

[Knowlesy]

I, for one, hope Senna gets to keep that record for all time.

I doubt it though, Schumacher will get some poles sooner or later.

[ralf fan]

IF Schu breaks it or not there is no doubt in my mind that Senna was one of the greatest qualifiers ever maybe even the greatest.....

[Logrence]

Fangio's records looked unbeatable. It'll happen sooner or later.

[djinvicta]

Senna or Schumacher, there is no comparison. Senna would have kicked a"s

[digger]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

Senna or Schumacher, there is no comparison. Senna would have kicked a"s

I agree, no way would MS be 7 times champion if Ayrton was still here.

[djinvicta]

Digger; a man after my own heart. A sad sad loss..

[Knowlesy]

Whether Schuey is 7 times champ or not, it doesn't alter the fact that Ayrton was supreme in his field. So there's no point getting wound up over whether Schuey would have won this or that if Senna hadn't crashed.

[djinvicta]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

Whether Schuey is 7 times champ or not, it doesn't alter the fact that Ayrton was supreme in his field. So there's no point getting wound up over whether Schuey would have won this or that if Senna hadn't crashed.

About time, how true. Goodnight.

[luke]

It's the same with will Schumacher ever beat Senna's record of wins at Monaco, for the past 4 years now he hasn't been able to equal it.

[djinvicta]

Originally Posted by luke

It's the same with will Schumacher ever beat Senna's record of wins at Monaco, for the past 4 years now he hasn't been able to equal it.

Of course not, He isnt in the same class, nor has the same intellectual skill.

[Don K]

I think it wouldn't be right if Michael were to break this record.


Michael has 83 wins and 63 poles.
So his strength lies in the races, not in qualifying.

Senna had 41 wins and 65 poles.
So qualifying was clearly a major strength in his case.

---------

Or in other words:

Senna had a pole in 40% of the races he attended.
Michael had a pole in only 28% of the races he attended.
So Senna is clearly the better qualifier.

And:
Michael won 38% of the races he started in.
Senna only won 25% of the races he started in.
So Michael is clearly better at winning races.

[IronLion]

though with the way qulalifing is these days whos to know.

[DavidStHubbins]

OT a bit I know but Schuey was doing alright when Senna was racing... If anyone was going to have their arse kicked it was not Schuey. Enough of the romancing of the past! Senna was at the end of his career and had peaked. Schuey was getting better and better - Senna was not as motivated since Prost left either. Neither would kick eithers arse though to be honest.

[ASCII Man]

Yes Don, but there is the fact that TGF participated longer in F1, at least 3 seasons or at least 50 races more than Senna.
Those seasons include 2 highly dominant seasons where he won the majority of the races.

If Senna hadn't died he would have completed his 3 year (IIRC) contract with Williams and would've won a hell of a lot more with those cars than Damon and even Jacques could and did win IMO.

But since that didn't happen there is just no real way to compare TGF and Senna...

[John Turner]

It does not particularly concern me either way whether MS takes Sennas pole record or not. Senna has made an indelible mark on the history of the sport, as has Michael.

As for who was the better, which actually is a separate issue, I prefer Don K's and DavidstHubbins more measured approach to this, than those who think Senna was the best of the two. I remain totally unconvinced that he would have kept the up and coming Schumacher in his place. History shows that every great driver has eventually been superseded by the next and Senna was going to be no exception. He may have delayed Micheal by a couple of seasons, but it was going to happen. Maybe, Micheal's current records would have been reduced but it would not have altered the fact that, like Senna, he has joined the pantheon of great drivers.

Back to thread, it does seem likely that MS will take the pole record too ..... provided he does not retire at the end of this season.

[Logrence]

It wouldn't be right!? Maybe Michael should slow down a bit in qualifying so as not to be too good.

[ASCII Man]

That sounds like a great plan!

[Don K]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Yes Don, but there is the fact that TGF participated longer in F1, at least 3 seasons or at least 50 races more than Senna.
Those seasons include 2 highly dominant seasons where he won the majority of the races.

If Senna hadn't died he would have completed his 3 year (IIRC) contract with Williams and would've won a hell of a lot more with those cars than Damon and even Jacques could and did win IMO.

But since that didn't happen there is just no real way to compare TGF and Senna...

During those 3 years, Hill won 18 races and Villeneuve won 4 races.
Do you really think that during those 3 years Senna would have won 40 races without getting a single pole???

I think he would have needed a lot more than 3 seasons to get his victory:pole ratio even close to Michael's.

[Adam43]

Well ASCII man wasn't talking about ratios! Oh and you missed a win for DC.

It is too difficult to compare. Are we considering that Michael has had a far more reliable car than Senna. Remember all those Lotus days when Senna put the car on pole, but the car wasn't up to a race.

As I said it is immaterial. I used to care more about such records. Different drivers, different cars, different opposition, different rules, different TV, different attitudes, different times. Comparisons. Pah.

It is nice Senna has that record, but broken or not, it will not remove the ultimate speed he had. The commitment we saw around places such as Monaco (or elsewhere). Wow, what a driver.

Michael is great too, but I'll reminisce when he retires

[John Turner]

It's just different then, Adam!! Agreed, anyway!

[BootsOntheSide]

I think it's a exaggeration that Senna was much better as a qualifier than a racer. Remember that in his 3 years with Lotus he took 16 poles and only 5 wins - mainly due to the cars being unrelaible, in 1985 he led more laps than anyone but only took 2 wins. Also, in 1988/89 he was teamed with Prost (never the fastest qualifier - his own poles total was boosted by that final seaosn in a dominant Williams with a rokokie team-mate), so that saw his total increase by a lot. Senna tended to have cars which were fast but unreliable - Michael has often had the more reliable car in a title fight, such as against Hakkinen in 1998 and 1999.

My feeling is that, had Senns continued for those 3 years, he would have taken at least another 15 poles and at least another 10 wins - some of these would have been at Michael's expense as well. Ayrton's stats may have finished at something like 206 races, 80 poles, 51 wins - I suspect Michael would have reached 206 races with around 60 wins and 40 poles.

As for the main question,I'm not convicned that Michale will do it now, but if he continues past this season and into one where he has a competitive car, he can get the job done. I agree with Martin Brund;e about Montreal - the front row came from a lightly-fuelled Button and a driving-out-of-his-skin Michael.

[foreversideways]

If Senna had lived,he would probably have won the 94 and 95 championships as Hill was close and no one would suggest that Hill was anywhere near as good as Senna.The whole picture would then have been different and i dont think from that position Shumacher would have gone on to become the dominant champion he is.
As it says on the website Senna was "In Life Unbeatable - In Death Irreplaceable"

[John Turner]

It's a great epitaph, and the second part is most certainly true.