Hans Question

[greenamex2]

RickP, you are missing the point that has cropped up numerous times.

The total cost of buying and installing a HANS device is usually over £1000, I know because I am doing it at the moment.

That's £1000 for a product that has only been tested on 'professional' cars, not the club stuff that most of us on this forum actually race.

So, thats £1000 on something that MAY be of zero benefit even if the person had an 'appropriate' accident.

What the 'people in position of very little knowledge' want is some genuine information relevant to them.

So far all the 'evangalists' have come up with is nothing of relevance to the majority of us.

And "it's only about the cost of a set of slicks". For a lot of the people on this forum it is the cost of half a seasons racing.


Show us some genuine numbers/tests of a typical road/hard slick tyred club saloon car/single seater hitting a typical solid object on a typical British club circuit and people will THEN be convinced.

The video footage/pictures/number on both the Scroth and HANS website are not representative of this.


PS I'm still getting one anyway.

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by RickP:Clio51

Guys, I think it's pretty dangerous when people get on their high horses over safety devices... especially if those people ranting are doing so from a position of very little knowledge and I'm concerned that's what's going on here.

Quite right, couldn't agree more. Few points though....

Originally Posted by RickP:Clio51

2. It doesn't restrict movement or vision.

Agree, while racing, but I find it does when you're sat on the grid during a "hold" and you're looking round trying to find an official to ask what the hell is going on.... and that sort of stuff

Originally Posted by RickP:Clio51

3. It works because it stays on your shoulders as you stretch the belts in an impact and softens the de-celeration of the head relative to the spine. The heath-robinson ideas of strapping your head to the roll cage or even a specific point on the belts would both kill u very quickly.

The Winston Cup car I dove in Florida definitely had helmet teathers and they definitely weren't attached to a HANS device. Are you saying that the very part of our sport which gave such a major impetus for the introduction of these things chose a "Heath-Robinson" solution?

Originally Posted by RickP:Clio51

Finally, we now laugh at people who think the World is flat and that not wearing seatbelts so you are thrown clear of the car is a good idea don't we?? Please?? Don't we???

You've not spent much time chatting to any Vintage or Historic sports car racers then

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

RickP, you are missing the point that has cropped up numerous times.

The total cost of buying and installing a HANS device is usually over £1000, I know because I am doing it at the moment.

That's £1000 for a product that has only been tested on 'professional' cars, not the club stuff that most of us on this forum actually race.

So, thats £1000 on something that MAY be of zero benefit even if the person had an 'appropriate' accident.

What the 'people in position of very little knowledge' want is some genuine information relevant to them.

So far all the 'evangalists' have come up with is nothing of relevance to the majority of us.

And "it's only about the cost of a set of slicks". For a lot of the people on this forum it is the cost of half a seasons racing.


Show us some genuine numbers/tests of a typical road/hard slick tyred club saloon car/single seater hitting a typical solid object on a typical British club circuit and people will THEN be convinced.

The video footage/pictures/number on both the Scroth and HANS website are not representative of this.


PS I'm still getting one anyway.

Why does it cost a grand?

[Larry J-Croft]

Sorry - thinking about this in the bath - as one does - another point springs to mind about cost - I could wax lyrical about alternative materials and manufacturing methods such as injection moulding, kevlar, wood etc etc. But answer this:

The device was mandated in F1 early on and single seaters use them lots - so why then does the price of the device go significantly up the more recline angle they have, ie the more suitable for single seaters they are ??(from £540 to £840 in Demon Tweeks) Any normal manufacturing rules would say the price would be the same or even less for ones more commonly sold. One can only conclude therefore that the price is a reflection of what they think they can get rather than reflecting any reasonable margin.

[greenamex2]

Al,

HANS device - £620
HANS compatible helmet - £300
HANS compatible seat - £300
HANS compatible harness - £180
Modifying your car to meet FIA installation guidelines - £100-£500

Take your pick from the menu above. Most people will come out at a grand or more.

[Al Weyman]

I thought you could use the existing belt and seats in most cases, I don't get this at all. My pre-drilled helmet cost £170.

[Eddy V]

You can use the 3" belts Al, like most things they just try to sell you anything.
It's all about magical mystery words for most people.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I thought you could use the existing belt and seats in most cases, I don't get this at all. My pre-drilled helmet cost £170.

That's a jolly cheap HANS drilled helmet you got. The cheapest I found at the Autosport show was about £270. If your helmet doesn't have the correct markings then it COULD get confiscated by the scrutineers.

The clearance between your helmet and seat may not be adequate for it to be comfortable, hence the HANS compatible seats.

There are some arguments over seatbelts. The various bits of seatbelt have to be in very specific places, hence HANS compatible seatbelts (SCHROTH, funnily enough, sell there own, HANS have a recommended list on their website).

The seat belt angles (especially the shoulder straps) have to be within fairly specific ranges, hence the need for many people to revise them. Not easy on some cars (like mine).

[Al Weyman]

OMP Helmet from Rallye Design and it has pasted three scutineer tests and been labeled up correctly infact the scrut at Silverstone commented on a bit of forward planning on my part for buying a Hans compatable helmet. Very comfortable helmet actually. Its here, actually it is now £179.50 (no VAT) http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/catalog...products_id=86

[RickP:Clio51]

Guys, this is exactly what I was trying to say.
People like Schroth have been spreading rubbish about the topic ot maximise their profit.
None of the cars I have driven have needed modifying to take the HANS, the HANS seat is not a bad idea, but not usually necessary, the seat belts if they are FIA legal are fine as should be the car. Often the problem is a lot of people don't have a legal/ FIA approved set-up on their belts and hence incur costs when they check them over.
The reason the different angles cost more is the numbers produced, purely and simply. The (very) high cost of homologation of the individual angles is spread over the number of units expected to be sold over the coming years. Therefore the less common ones cost more, it's simple economics.
And I assure u, because of the method in which they have to be put together as a safety device combined with the homologation costs and licence costs (which as discussed previously will take many years to cover the development and research investment) there is very very little margin indeed for the retailers.

Does anyone here know the exact impact speed IN THE DIRECTION of the wall of Dale Earnhardt's car? I'm told it was only a little over 40mph (yes he was doing 150mph plus in the direction of the circuit, but the vector with the wall which caused the impact was apparently very low)... but because he was twisted in the seat at the time of the impact, he suffered a BSF. If you don't go over 40mph, perhaps you don't need a HANS for your club races?
A touch harsh, but I've raced clubbys and you can die in clubbys.
I've spent the night in Frenchys hospital (Nr Coombe) with 2 of my 3 team-mates: one who was very lucky to live, the other who spent 6months in a dark room and only had 60 secs of memory for the next 24hours... very tough to keep telling a guy what his name is and how he got there before starting over again.
The 4th guy in our team perished at Oulton Park just a couple of seasons later.

The kid in the mini at Silverstone was only racing a clubby, the guy in the Clio at Thruxton was only a club racer.

Fortunately I wasn't one of the doctors/marshalls that had to attend to these scenes. U might like the right to kill yourselves and your family might bless you for that but there are others affected, sometimes traumatically.

Call me an evangelist if you like, but if one person buys a HANS as a result of my ranting then I will be happy. If one person DOESN'T buy a HANS because of false knowledge and poor information spread on bulletin boards and elsewhere then I hope the people responsible have thought thru the consequence of their actions before posting.
I'd like to qualify that and point out that this particular debate is not of the irresponsible variety: actually informative and hopefully clearing up some of the myths.

And I'm sorry, but I'm still in the camp that if you can't afford a helmet, you can't afford to race. I appreciate there will always be people who want the freedom of choice/speech/death but the same should go for the HANS.

[RickP:Clio51]

sorry, 45 degs is more dangerous because u don't have as much natural stretch in your neck in that direction. The HANS keeps the head square to the shoulders in an impact and hence stops too much movement outside of the forward/back plane which your body is designed for.
I'm away now for a few weeks so I can't respond again. However I am racing the ex-Aiello Primera in the Dutch SuperCars this year and will be at:

Spa 8/9 April
Zolder 20/21 May
and
Brands 17/18th June.

Anyone wishing to meet me, try my HANS in situ in the Primera and talk to me about concerns they have about it is welcome to come and collar me in the paddock of those events at any point and refer to this thread.

Cheers
Rick P

[andy97]

I started this thread and have followed it closely ever since, listening to all the arguments. I have also had discussions with suppliers in the UK and US.

I have been convinced of the benefits of the HANS device and have bought one of the Stand 21 versions with the lips at each outer edge, designed to help retain the seat belts in the correct position. This was slightly more expensive than the Schroth versions but I just wasn't convinced by the "non slip" arrangement for the belts on the Schroth versions. Personal choice and personal prejudice I guess.

For the club racer on a very limited budget the HANS is eye wateringly expensive but not, as my long suffering wife said, as expensive as a life time of full time care for a quadraplegic (Spelling?).

Interestingly, I was working in the USA before xmas and investigated buying a HANS device over there - lets face it, most things are 60-70% of the UK price in the US - but I found that the price was only marginally cheaper and that the potential to have to send it back to the US if I discovered that I had bought the wrong angled version for my car set up meant that it was not worth it. I bought mine at the Autosport show in the end.

[Redracer77]

I am going to have to sell my HANS device after only using it once as I can't get the seatbelts to stay on with the car that I drive......

[andy97]

Wouldn't it be easier, and safer, to change the seatbelts? You might even be able to sell the belts on, as yours is a new car.

[Walshy]

Originally Posted by andy97

I started this thread and have followed it closely ever since, listening to all the arguments. I have also had discussions with suppliers in the UK and US.

I have been convinced of the benefits of the HANS device and have bought one of the Stand 21 versions with the lips at each outer edge, designed to help retain the seat belts in the correct position. This was slightly more expensive than the Schroth versions but I just wasn't convinced by the "non slip" arrangement for the belts on the Schroth versions. Personal choice and personal prejudice I guess.

For the club racer on a very limited budget the HANS is eye wateringly expensive but not, as my long suffering wife said, as expensive as a life time of full time care for a quadraplegic (Spelling?).

Interestingly, I was working in the USA before xmas and investigated buying a HANS device over there - lets face it, most things are 60-70% of the UK price in the US - but I found that the price was only marginally cheaper and that the potential to have to send it back to the US if I discovered that I had bought the wrong angled version for my car set up meant that it was not worth it. I bought mine at the Autosport show in the end.

As I've said all along. The advantages of a HANS device are very clear in a frontal impact and it has been proven this year in our Championship. But, as yet, I am unconvinced that they would prove safe in the event of a roll into gravel in a less than new single seater. A large number of the older single seaters have quite low cockpit sides and if the roll hoop digs into the gravel, well, your heads next. With a HANS device you can't move your head anywhere to avoid this.

[Walshy]

Originally Posted by Redracer77

I am going to have to sell my HANS device after only using it once as I can't get the seatbelts to stay on with the car that I drive......

I didn't know you had a HANS device Chris!!!!!!

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by andy97

Wouldn't it be easier, and safer, to change the seatbelts? You might even be able to sell the belts on, as yours is a new car.

It is not the seat belts but the position they are mounted on the chassis. They are too wide so falls off the shoulders.

It would only work if I mounted the bolt points closer together....

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by Walshy

I didn't know you had a HANS device Chris!!!!!!

got it for the festival last year and used it then but put it away after after 1 session of the WHT.

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by Walshy

As I've said all along. The advantages of a HANS device are very clear in a frontal impact and it has been proven this year in our Championship. But, as yet, I am unconvinced that they would prove safe in the event of a roll into gravel in a less than new single seater. A large number of the older single seaters have quite low cockpit sides and if the roll hoop digs into the gravel, well, your heads next. With a HANS device you can't move your head anywhere to avoid this.

thats not true chris, as long as your helmet is clear of the buckles on the belts then you can move you head quite a bit

[Walshy]

Then that defeats the object of one then isn't it?

You can't move your head independant of your shoulders as your head is strapped to them. If you wanted to tuck your head down forwards, you can't as your shoulders are held back by your belts.

I thought the purpose of the HANS was to stop your head movinf forwards..........

[Redracer77]

you can move as far as your shoulders allows. What a HANS is designed to do is stop the whiplash from stretching.....I didn't feels any different with HANS on or off. The side staps at set for each driver. They are not tight to stop you moving.

[Walshy]

You'll have to show me to convince me mate.

[greenamex2]

Still no hard facts relevant to club saloon cars then.

[Eddy V]

And we won't get it Denis. The manufacturers can't be bothered to test that expensive equipement in a clubbie saloon.

@ Rick: Everybody knows Hans is good, but what we question is why does it have to be so expensive? Research? It should become cheaper then afterwards, but it will not.



And what when somebody has a big one with a system: who is going to allow the driver the use of his system again? Buy a new one, guys.
What is next? A Snell or FIA age related standard for the Hans? So throw it in the bin after 5 years or so?

Professional drivers have a little bit more money to spend than the average Clubman.

I sell the things, yet I'm "against" them (cost wise).

[ss_collins]

Two intersting points from some independant research done when the USAF and FIA were developing anti BSF devices - (note I don't see the USAF using HANS), that they found in front or rear impacts that the brain could withstand a lot but in side impacts it was vey easy to damage.

Simple obsevation of how the Hans works explains the increse in severe concussions since its widespread introduction - but it also has no benefit to the user in a side impact where the greater danger is.

HANS? not until its properly reserched