Hans Question

[Al Weyman]

If so anyone want to buy a couple of Camaros?

[artcar]

Originally Posted by rbs

The BMW driver who went off at Post 7 at Mallory yesterday spoke very highly of the HANS device and was pleased he was wearing it.

Saw that accident in my mirror and pleased it was me who pursuaded him to get a HANS device. He was also using a seat with ears as mandated in the Production BMW's this season. Have just read most of this thread and seen some interesting comments for and against; having used a HANS since middle of last season I wouldn't race without it now.

Yes they are expensive and I take issue with this but then how much did we spend on our cars over the winter to gain another few tenths? I take the view that even if it's the tiny minority of accidents where the HANS could prevent serious injury, its my neck and I want to keep it in one piece.

Suddenly £500 or so seems a (relative) bargain!

So, to not use one on the grounds that they are excessively expensive seems a little shortsighted to me.

I should also say that using one is simply different to driving without. Provided the tethers are adjusted properly then lateral movement is still sufficient but they shouldn't be too tight otherwise if you end up sideways across the circuit after a spin you won't be able to turn your head enough to see if anything is coming. They also do tend to incline your head slightly forwards as compared to using without so this needs careful adjustment / getting used to

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by artcar

Yes they are expensive and I take issue with this but then how much did we spend on our cars over the winter to gain another few tenths?

Suddenly £500 or so seems a (relative) bargain!

NOTHING, the £1000 it cost me to install the HANS wiped out my 'keeping up with the competition' budget for the year!

[johnw]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

NOTHING, the £1000 it cost me to install the HANS wiped out my 'keeping up with the competition' budget for the year!

Presumably a new helmet required for you as well then Dennis?

I've been using one for a year, didn't really notice any difference after the first few laps.

[topwelshman]

I invested in a HANS last season and would not consider racing without one now. Having a crash is something that I have accepepted has to happen at some point, come close a few times and when it comes I will be happier knowing I have a HANS on, it's all about piece of mind for me and the discomfort totally disappears when you leave the paddock. In my view it's simple, if you can't afford to be safe then you shouldn't be out there.

[Al Weyman]

In my view it's simple, if you can't afford to be safe then you shouldn't be out there.

Don't entirely agree with that statement, apart from anything else I have two cars that would need doing. Its what you choose personally to spend your money on not whether you can affod it.

I can afford it but I (a) don't want to be forced to spend that ridiculous amount of money on something that costs maybe a couple of hundred quid or less to make, and (b) I think it would be impractical for me to use and (c) the jury is still out on the benifits of the device. What's around the corner? Something bigger and better they will force us the have.

Is there an issue for disabled drivers, I can see this being impractical for some of them to use as they probably have enough difficulty getting out the car in an emergency, are we going to have exemptions or will they just simply not be able to race.

[dtype38]

Al, there's already lots of stuff we buy in the name of safety that is both expensive and inconvenient, but we have to do in order to go racing. Roll cages, extinguisher systems, overalls, helmets etc,.,etc. We take them for granted now because for many of us the rules to have them were in force before we started racing. In ten years time, new clubbie racers (hopefully it will still be going) will think no more of their HANS device than of their FIA approved harness. Personally I approve of the general push towards safer racing, so long as it is done over time and with sympathy to the costs involved. I don't think its unreasonable to say, for example, that when a new device is introduced to F1 or WRC, then there will be three or four years grace before it has to be used at the lower levels of motor sport. That gives us time to save, or throw our toys out of the pram, as we wish. Some will not accept it and just give up, but those left will, hopefully, be a bit safer for having it (whatever "it" may be.

As for the expense.... well lets just say that some of us mortals can't actually afford to have two racing cars ;-))

[Richy_Rich]

I've been following this thread for a while now and I can't remember if this has come up, but...

Does the HANS device apply to the older, slower cars? I can see, say, NASCARs smashing a wall head on, or an F1 car and to some extent the rally cars. But just for example, take my car, an old Triumph Spitfire with a max speed of, say, 110-120 mph, relatively light, not exactly a stiff car, loads of 'crunch' up the front. Aren't I more likely to break my ankles than my neck in a head on smash?

Not that I'm against buying stuff that'll save my life, I'm hardly insane or suicidal and I suppose I'm playing devils advocate a little, but is it a bit like wearing a tinfoil hat and claiming it works because you never get abducted by aliens?

[johnw]

100 mph into a typical tyre lined Armco barrier buried in earth (common in the UK) 2 metre crash distance - about 50g impact

[Notso Swift]

But you will not die from you neck breaking, your shins entering your brain maybe...

[R59]

Originally Posted by johnw

100 mph into a typical tyre lined Armco barrier buried in earth (common in the UK) 2 metre crash distance - about 50g impact

It would be 50G if (a) the armco didn't flinch at all when you hit it, and (b) there were no tyres in front of it. There is a fair amount of absorbsion going on there, and that reduces the decelleration dramatically. One of the reasons why they introduced the new barrier at all NASCAR tracks, putting an impact absorbing "cushion" around all of the unforgiving concrete walls.

Someone once told me that the tip of an exocet missile's nose cone see's 45G of impact when it hit's a concrete block, not that it's important in this context!

You mention cars slower than NASCAR, we lost one of our compatriots at Silverstone a few years back, if you remember, in a Mini. Same type of impact. The 'classic' 1-o'clock impact.

Al, it doesn't matter if you have 10 cars, you only need one HANS for yourself, and now they've developed them to work with 3" belts you don't need the special HANS specific belts (like I had to buy!).

Your comment "something that costs a couple of hundred quid to make", yep, that's what they cost. How much is a new neck? And where can you buy one from??

I'm sure there were similar arguments when seatbelts were first introduced.
Now we take them for granted.

It's a few years away from being compulsory, but as they say, fore warned is fore armed.

Rob.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Richy_Rich

I've been following this thread for a while now and I can't remember if this has come up, but...

Does the HANS device apply to the older, slower cars? I can see, say, NASCARs smashing a wall head on, or an F1 car and to some extent the rally cars. But just for example, take my car, an old Triumph Spitfire with a max speed of, say, 110-120 mph, relatively light, not exactly a stiff car, loads of 'crunch' up the front. Aren't I more likely to break my ankles than my neck in a head on smash?

Not that I'm against buying stuff that'll save my life, I'm hardly insane or suicidal and I suppose I'm playing devils advocate a little, but is it a bit like wearing a tinfoil hat and claiming it works because you never get abducted by aliens?

Yes it has. I think the conclusion was you could still suffer the same type of accident although are probably less likely too. Some of the marshals have quoted seeing these types of cars in these types of accidents resulting in these types of injuries.

Not a scientifically proven argument but half the problem with HANS is the manufacturers and governing bodies don't seem interested in providing scientific info to us dregs.

So educated observation is all we can base our decision on.

[ss_collins]

the problem is the way the hans was introduced as a magic 'fix all' the research was inadequate and sales based as it was funded by the manufacturers.

Initially Hans type devices were being developed for USAF fast jet pilots - they did not adopt the system - why not?

there is evidence (that I've seen but can't pin down) that suggests Hans increases the risk of brain injury.

I think a lot more research is needed. Or someone to look at the numbers - how many people suffered with BSF in the ten years before hans?

those of you who swear by Hans - do you really know what you are talking about - do you know what Hans is designed for, do you know its design limitations, its effective angle limitations, do you even know why you bought it, do you know that side impacts are far more dangerous than head ons?

I suggest you all read up on the independent research on Hans (oh thats it it doesn't exist) or look at Racecar Engineering V16N2 which highlights the risks of side impacts.

Hans secures your skull and basically stops you neck breaking in a very specific impact type. It does nothing more and some evidence suggests that it can in fact worsen your injuries.

Do you really know anything about that thing on your neck? or how safety systems like it get approved by the FIA?

[Tim Falce]

Very well said Sam.

[Al Weyman]

Yes very elequently put Sam.

I'm sure there were similar arguments when seatbelts were first introduced.
Now we take them for granted.

My FIA 3" belts cost me £80 plus vat, Dennis has just spent a grand, bit of difference no? Also do you not need a special seat Rob? I don't mind swapping the belts and transponder between cars to save a bit but the seat would be too much agg.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Yes very elequently put Sam.
My FIA 3" belts cost me £80 plus vat, Dennis has just spent a grand, bit of difference no? Also do you not need a special seat Rob? I don't mind swapping the belts and transponder between cars to save a bit but the seat would be too much agg.

I got away with keeping my seat (FIA spec but not listed as 'HANS approved'), or that would have been another £4-500!

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Also do you not need a special seat Rob? I don't mind swapping the belts and transponder between cars to save a bit but the seat would be too much agg.

Lots of "older type" seats do work for the hans, it all depends a bit on the stature of the driver, in conjunction with seat and hans. Try it first, then buy a new seat, if needed.

What type of seat do you have in the cars Al? I can look it up next week (gone for the weekend), if you like.

400-500 for a Hans approved seat? I can do 'em cheaper.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Eddy V

400-500 for a Hans approved seat? I can do 'em cheaper.

I have to go for the lightest component available, regardless of cost. I am up against cars that are over 100Kg lighter and, in certain series, have 10-20% more horsepower and 30%+ more torque than my professionally built Formula Atlantic spec engine could ever make.

Can you give us an idea of 'typical' component costs for a HANS install?

[topwelshman]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

those of you who swear by Hans - do you really know what you are talking about - do you know what Hans is designed for, do you know its design limitations, its effective angle limitations, do you even know why you bought it, do you know that side impacts are far more dangerous than head ons?

Do you really know anything about that thing on your neck? or how safety systems like it get approved by the FIA?

Well actually yes I did do research on it and although I am not an authority and do not "swear by it", I certainly don't shout if from the roof tops, for me, as far as I was concerned any protection was better than none and that justifies the cost in my mind and their relevance in the market place

[carsten.meurer]

Originally Posted by topwelshman

Well actually yes I did do research on it and although I am not an authority and do not "swear by it", I certainly don't shout if from the roof tops, for me, as far as I was concerned any protection was better than none and that justifies the cost in my mind and their relevance in the market place

any protection ....

are you sure about the gain in protection you will have, and are you sure you will not give away proofen protection in other areas by useing the device ?

its so often said that the device did help in an accident... but in most cases
i see a device used, its used to no effect ! straps too long is most common !
belts angled wrong the other...

so isn't it rather right to say no injury despite the device used ?


just heared the figure made with hans sales this year in a small country alone... 120 000 euro !!!
a country without any formula racing (mostly)...

so to me its more about printing money than careing about our safety !

if safety was the reason, the proper use of it would be policed !
but its only policed if you bought one...

[artcar]

Can't help thinking that the case against the HANS is being based more on the high cost rather than whether they increase, decrease or make no difference to safety. For example, if a HANS cost, say, £100 (I wish!) would we be having this discussion?

[johnw]

[QUOTE=racing59]It would be 50G if (a) the armco didn't flinch at all when you hit it, and (b) there were no tyres in front of it. There is a fair amount of absorbsion going on there, and that reduces the decelleration dramatically. One of the reasons why they introduced the new barrier at all NASCAR tracks, putting an impact absorbing "cushion" around all of the unforgiving concrete walls.

Someone once told me that the tip of an exocet missile's nose cone see's 45G of impact when it hit's a concrete block, not that it's important in this context!

Al, it doesn't matter if you have 10 cars, you only need one HANS for yourself, and now they've developed them to work with 3" belts you don't need the special HANS specific belts (like I had to buy!).[QUOTE]

Rob, the Armco doesn't flinch when being backed up by an earth bank. I put in a generous 2 metre crash distance to allow for a tyre wall, but you find one that is two metres thick!
If you'd like to send me the maths behind the exocet story, I'd be delighted to have a look at it.
If you want mine for cars hitting barriers, PM me.

I have never seen anything which suggested that Hans needed "specific" belts, other than on the Scroth (?) website, when indeed they were the only people making the Hans specific belts.
There was nothing on the Hubbard/Downing site which indicated that belts then available were a problem.

Carsten
Long straps are on view in the majority of cars I see racing without HANS. (Usually bolted to the lower rear seat pan in saloons.) IMO It is ridiculous that this is not better policed, as the stretch in them will be huge.
Conversely the majority of HANS wearers seem to have very short tails on their shoulder straps. Perhaps because they are paying more attention to the fitting instructions?

Artcar
There is no case being made against Hans here, just innuendo.
Sam Collins is a self confessed throwback to the days of leather helmets and string gloves

Sam
I can think of one reason that fast jet pilots wouldn't bother wearing a head restraining device. Probably something around hitting a wall at mach 2 not making much difference

As for continuing to decry the use of Hans.
Do you really know what you are talking about? - do you know what Hans is designed for, do you know its design limitations, its effective angle limitations? If so, pray tell.

BTW Yes, I do know that side impacts are far more dangerous than head ons, so why don't you campaign to mandate winged seats?

This subject always seems to raise so much emotion. Some of us have done the research and maths of possible impacts and made our decision to purchase.
It's not wrong, just different to what others of you have decided.

[ss_collins]

I've been in touch with my contacts at the FIA on this and they tell me tests showed that HANS effective angle is +/- 30 degrees.

[johnw]

More than I was expecting Sam, thanks

[carsten.meurer]

while you are surely right that seatbelts are often installed in a dangerous way ( in some single seaters from factory...), i meant the straps on the
hans device to the helmet ! in f1 or wrc, most are so long, they have NO effect !
so in a accident they cannot take the lorels for avoiding injury !
very much the same with a lot of racers elsewhere !

cost is not my point !

i DID just buy a mega expensive carbon seat with ears to help me in the
worst case, and no one forced me to ! it just made sense, because it can not harm, but possibly help ! so i spend a lot more on the added safety than a
hans would cost me.

just i am worried about the hans taking safety away from me, and NO ONE was able to convince me of the opposite yet !
i rather rely on perfectly working seatbelts, and no carbon edges between my spine and the seat in case of the worst than on a - but it might help, even if we have no proof - device that makes the fia money.

you might as well need 10 hans for 10 different cars you have !
depends on the seat angle and position of belts and all !
some top level f1 and wrc drivers just had hans devices build to theire personal demands ( cost 45000,- ), wonder why that is if a off the shelf one does the job just as well.

if this hans thing was for our safety, they would make us buy AND use them properly !
but they only make us buy one ! no interest if it is working good or bad in the car !
that makes it clear for me that it is a money driven decision !


to some extend it might have been the same when seatbelts became mandatory !
in some of the cars around at the time it might have been safer not to wear them ! being thrown out might have been safer then being crushed.
but today cars are different and build to protect the driver that stays in the car.
i am all for hans being developed, and cars adopted for it to work perfectly
wherever possible.
just not to make it mandatory in cars not entirely designed for its use !
because in those cases it CAN do you harm !